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[Music]

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you're in the para cast the gold

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standard of paranormal radio now here's

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gene Stein you know it's an interesting

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here how old tech devices get to be so

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valuable

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you must have an iPod somewhere Chris

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don't you not an actual ID but if you

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have an mp3 player though I'd never use

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okay the reason I mentioned that is

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because the iPod Classic which was the

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last I pod with 160 gigabyte fixed hard

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drive mechanical hard drive Apple

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discontinued it after keeping it in

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production for about five years

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it sold for something like $2.99 or

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something when it was discontinued now

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you have to pay a thousand dollars to

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find one on eBay oh man I wish had

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gotten one back then I could oh yeah

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just think about that all the things

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that we don't have value for and for

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example I'll give you another example of

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that I have a relative who was selling

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one of these Ronald McDonald statues

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from the 60s so they snuck in front of

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stores that's worth a few thousand Wow

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but I don't know in terms of the UFO and

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paranormal field what do you think would

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get a lot of money piece of the Roswell

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memory metal yeah we're talking about

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real things not stuff that will never

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happen

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okay let's talk about reality here yeah

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how about a scale of a Reptoid I

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remember there was a case in Utah back

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in the late 90s were this guy claimed

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that he I don't know how he got it he

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somehow it was able to find a an actual

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scale from a Reptoid I think Darrell

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Sims was involved in in that Bowl and of

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course as soon as physical evidence like

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that is you know there's a claim of that

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sort of course it never seems to pan out

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I think in the real world if we're look

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at something that would get money maybe

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a classic UFO book classic work on the

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paranormal yeah yeah but T's I can find

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uh

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I found a first edition George Adamski

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for five bucks Matty's bookstore once

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you know that's how I started to buy UFO

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books I went to this bookstore in lower

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Manhattan and they had all these

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closeout books about UFOs for a dollar a

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copy this is of course is what the 1960s

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as a matter of fact that's where I

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bought a copy of Jim Mosely saucer news

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that's where I first saw the magazine

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that I subscribed and for some reason

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Jim called me on the phone we have

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listed phone number at the time and he

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realized I was just a kid but in a few

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years we became friends but it all

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started from rummaging the closeout

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shelves at a bookstore and the reason I

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mentioned that is because there's really

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not much of that anymore where do you

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find a bookstore where you could just

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rummage the closeouts the use books and

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find a treasure nowadays it's online

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nowadays most of these small bookstores

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are gone

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in fact the bookstore I went to I just

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remember the name Samuel wiser oh sure

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they also had a small publishing company

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yeah I remember going and going down

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there a few times so you know during my

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New York days I was looking for books on

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the West o-net esoteric tradition

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Crowley books a life is levy you know

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reissues reprints McGregor Mathers

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Israel Regardie I picked up by a number

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of things in fact my brother found a a

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very rare book there called the garden

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of pomegranates which is worth some

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money

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of course he has a copy of Crowley's

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personal copy of his greatest work the

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book of thoth Brennan has the author's

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proof copy which he found at a sidewalk

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sale in Albany New York and bought a box

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for $5.00 with some pretty valuable

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books on history of the Masons and one

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of the books was this leather-bound book

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that we've had authenticated and this

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was over 30 years ago and it's the real

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deal the only surviving book from

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Crowley's personal collection all the

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rest of the books were burnt well if you

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ever run out of money you auction that

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thing off on eBay I bet ya five mid five

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figures for don't split that way whoa

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Wow yeah up in Sedona did they have any

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of these old bookstores anymore you know

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they don't to my knowledge there is a

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really good used bookstore in Quartzsite

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Arizona run by this nudist who walks

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around naked with a sock so he's

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basically putting emphasis on put a sock

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on it yeah well he kind of has to I

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think legally but he's quite a character

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but he has a really neat book shop but I

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found what did I find there I found out

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I think some old Frank Edwards stuff

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incident and Exeter I think John fuller

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yes yeah John fuller rather Frank

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Edwards by the way it's interesting I

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got to know him a little bit when I was

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a plant in the audience arranged by Jim

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Mosely during one of the shows that

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Frank Edwards did and after the show I

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got to talk to Frank and he seemed like

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a really nice guy

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really Nigar beaver although he wasn't

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like an investigative reporter per se he

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did basically recited the basics about

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his sighting and he kept it up but he

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died real young I think I got to know

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him about a year before he died do you

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think about all the memories had come

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back from looking at these old books and

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that's like a dying breed you hardly

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find that anymore

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here in Arizona there is something

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called changing hands bookstore in Tempe

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they've got a lot of old stuff too and

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that's one of the places where maybe

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I'll do a little rummaging yeah

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through some of the used book sections

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there's the hippy Emporium in cottonwood

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has a used book section in there and if

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I if I find a book by keel or valet you

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know generally they're paperbacks I'll

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buy them because I so many people over

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the years I talked to him about a

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particular book and and if I have extra

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copies around then I can lend them out

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so I've got like I think I don't know

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how many messengers of deception I have

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probably two or three dimensions

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revelations I've got several copies this

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is the O'Brien lending library yeah okay

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but you know you have to make an

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appointment to visit it and I think you

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have to leave a major credit card as a

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deposit in case you don't return the

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book I'm kidding

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today this is something really

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fascinating today we've got somebody

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I've known very very slightly over the

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years he was a reader one of the readers

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of the magazine I did a number of years

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ago called caveat emptor where we tried

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to look at UFOs paranormal phenomena as

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a very all-encompassing set of mysteries

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that may have a common cause now George

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Hansen first time on the power cast has

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a book that kind of sums up a lot of

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thought that we've expressed here and

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certainly heavily influenced stalking

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the tricksters by our old friend there

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mr. Chris O'Brien his book is called the

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trickster and the paranormal okay it's

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not a new book it's out like you know 11

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12 years ago but it's a fascinating

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subject to enter into it's not an easy

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subject to digest it's not well et is

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coming here and let's prepare for the

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second coming of the Martians or the

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Zeta Reticulans or whatever they're

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called this is something far more

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complicated because it deals with a

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force or an energy or something that you

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find all over the place it's part and

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parcel of our existence and as a matter

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of fact we're going to bring up one

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politically incorrect subject at the

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very beginning with George Hansen

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related to a very well-known abduction

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case and I won't mention what that is

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now

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I will tell you folks that we're

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immersed now in that new podcast called

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after the para cast it's available only

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if you're a subscriber to the para cast

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plus where you also get an ad-free

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version of this show how about that go

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to plus dot our cast come that's PL us

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dot the para cast come for signup

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instructions for the cost of a

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Frappuccino every month or a crappuccino

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whatever you want to call it you get

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para cast plus but we've got George

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Hansen he's coming up next with Jean and

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Chris you're in the Barrett cast so

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here's what happened I was placing an

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order online the site went down it took

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hours before it returned but I'd already

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placed the order with another company if

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your site goes down you could lose

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business and if you have a business or

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personal site you'll want to know it's

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easy to run and it will stay online at

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iWeb your site is hosted on one of the

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most reliable networks in the world talk

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to a sales rep at a web.com use the

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promo code tech night out for a special

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discount first game attack of the rock

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codes and it was a critically acclaimed

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success and now there's the coming of

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the protectors a former military

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intelligence man is contacted by a space

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woman in a dream a dream that turns out

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to be a nightmare because evil forces on

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our distant planet are planning to

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conquer the earth

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this is gripping science fiction of the

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classic kind attack of the rock OIG's

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and the coming of the protectors find

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out more at rockets calm that's rock oh

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it's our Ock oids calm on the average

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Americans work between 45 to 50 years

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hoping to build up enough wealth to

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retire and live out their golden years

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unfortunately with taxation the rising

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cost of food energy housing and medical

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many retirees are forced to live below

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the poverty line is this a fly free

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enterprise or is our monetary unit we

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call the Federal Reserve Note forcing us

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into perpetual debt ensuring inflation

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and higher taxes these questions and

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more can be answered by reading G Edward

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Griffin book the creature from Jekyll

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congressman Ron Paul states it's what

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every American needs to know about

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central bank power a gripping adventure

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into the secret world of international

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banking cartel hi this is Ted Anderson I

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will give a silver dollar from the early

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1900's to anyone who purchases this book

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call 1-866-376-8255 104 $35,000 you

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heard right that's 5000 square feet for

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$35,000 manufacturers if you need a

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larger building try a 100 by 100

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commercial building for a hundred and

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twenty-nine thousand you can't afford to

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rent with these prices

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imagine a 70 by 100 foot church building

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for under sixty nine thousand dollars

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with the economy improving and interest

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rates still at historic lows you can't

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afford to wait so call 866 91 steel lock

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in your price now call 866 91 steel

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that's eight six six nine one seven 83

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35 it's that time of year again and you

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know what that means cold and flu season

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but don't worry

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309
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plus subscribers we have today somebody

310
00:14:58,490 --> 00:14:54,149
i've kind of known slightly over the

311
00:15:01,819 --> 00:14:58,500
years we've had crossed paths here and

312
00:15:04,639 --> 00:15:01,829
there he's George Hansen he's author of

313
00:15:06,350 --> 00:15:04,649
a fascinating book a classic book in its

314
00:15:09,079 --> 00:15:06,360
own right called the trickster and the

315
00:15:11,600 --> 00:15:09,089
paranormal George welcome to the para

316
00:15:13,490 --> 00:15:11,610
cast how do you like your book being

317
00:15:18,470 --> 00:15:13,500
called a classic do you feel maybe it's

318
00:15:21,710 --> 00:15:18,480
making you look a little bit old yes yes

319
00:15:24,650 --> 00:15:21,720
it does my uh and I think it's been out

320
00:15:27,410 --> 00:15:24,660
since 2001 and it's still selling so I

321
00:15:28,509 --> 00:15:27,420
guess that's not quite a classic but

322
00:15:31,220 --> 00:15:28,519
it's certainly moving in that direction

323
00:15:37,939 --> 00:15:31,230
so it's not in the closeout bins of the

324
00:15:39,860 --> 00:15:37,949
bookstores yet now you and I encountered

325
00:15:42,500 --> 00:15:39,870
each other maybe once or twice back in

326
00:15:46,550 --> 00:15:42,510
the 80s do you remember the occasions

327
00:15:49,030 --> 00:15:46,560
well I remember meeting you at at least

328
00:15:51,170 --> 00:15:49,040
one and maybe more of John keels

329
00:15:55,009 --> 00:15:51,180
meetings of the New York for teen

330
00:15:57,699 --> 00:15:55,019
society and I remember having some of

331
00:16:01,490 --> 00:15:57,709
your River met magazines caveat emptor

332
00:16:04,540 --> 00:16:01,500
yes I still have a few of those but I

333
00:16:07,490 --> 00:16:04,550
don't we probably went out and had a

334
00:16:10,670 --> 00:16:07,500
snack after the meetings as we were

335
00:16:12,650 --> 00:16:10,680
accustomed to do but more than that I'm

336
00:16:15,439 --> 00:16:12,660
not sure we've had much contact well

337
00:16:20,030 --> 00:16:15,449
those were held I think on East 30th

338
00:16:20,900 --> 00:16:20,040
Street in Manhattan yes 30th at 8:30

339
00:16:22,910 --> 00:16:20,910
someplace

340
00:16:24,949 --> 00:16:22,920
the first a second sometimes but yes yes

341
00:16:27,829 --> 00:16:24,959
and then we went out to I think miss

342
00:16:29,480 --> 00:16:27,839
Kay's deli right now miss Kay's was

343
00:16:32,110 --> 00:16:29,490
basically one of these Korean

344
00:16:33,830 --> 00:16:32,120
convenience store delis that

345
00:16:35,870 --> 00:16:33,840
proliferated

346
00:16:37,490 --> 00:16:35,880
in that part of midtown Manhattan and

347
00:16:42,280 --> 00:16:37,500
you go there and they had like a buffet

348
00:16:45,140 --> 00:16:42,290
like a salad buffet right and you know

349
00:16:47,000 --> 00:16:45,150
$4 to a pound I forget how they figure

350
00:16:48,620 --> 00:16:47,010
that I think they weighed it you just

351
00:16:51,530 --> 00:16:48,630
made up a plate of whatever you liked

352
00:16:53,630 --> 00:16:51,540
mm-hmm now I'll tell you one quick story

353
00:16:55,940 --> 00:16:53,640
and this maybe even leads to tricksters

354
00:16:58,550 --> 00:16:55,950
at one of those New York for teen

355
00:17:01,760 --> 00:16:58,560
Society meetings Whitley Strieber came

356
00:17:04,100 --> 00:17:01,770
on this was made yeah around 1990 or 91

357
00:17:07,220 --> 00:17:04,110
or something like that and three Burt

358
00:17:09,890 --> 00:17:07,230
was explaining and I guess as a side

359
00:17:12,440 --> 00:17:09,900
effect of revealing his abduction

360
00:17:15,890 --> 00:17:12,450
experiences in the book Communion and

361
00:17:18,710 --> 00:17:15,900
the follow ups that the IRS subjected

362
00:17:21,860 --> 00:17:18,720
him to what he called a virulent a set

363
00:17:24,470 --> 00:17:21,870
of Investigations or tax auditing

364
00:17:27,920 --> 00:17:24,480
sessions do you recall him saying that I

365
00:17:32,380 --> 00:17:27,930
don't but it wouldn't surprise me I've

366
00:17:36,050 --> 00:17:32,390
heard things like that elsewhere but I

367
00:17:39,160 --> 00:17:36,060
went to a lot of meetings I don't recall

368
00:17:41,960 --> 00:17:39,170
that but I'm very intrigued by the

369
00:17:43,940 --> 00:17:41,970
information the reason I'm intrigued is

370
00:17:47,390 --> 00:17:43,950
because within a few months after that

371
00:17:50,930 --> 00:17:47,400
the IRS sends me you notice they want to

372
00:17:53,390 --> 00:17:50,940
audit my tax returns no my income

373
00:17:56,780 --> 00:17:53,400
postured in those years was very simple

374
00:17:59,210 --> 00:17:56,790
I worked as a pre-press typography

375
00:18:01,970 --> 00:17:59,220
specialist for one of those art studios

376
00:18:05,390 --> 00:18:01,980
in New York City on the side I pursued

377
00:18:08,630 --> 00:18:05,400
my paranormal interests but this lasted

378
00:18:10,460 --> 00:18:08,640
for a couple of years meeting after

379
00:18:13,400 --> 00:18:10,470
meeting as if I was some kind of large

380
00:18:16,640 --> 00:18:13,410
corporation now you know that's long ago

381
00:18:20,590 --> 00:18:16,650
and far away but just the coincidence of

382
00:18:24,110 --> 00:18:20,600
having streamer talk about the variant

383
00:18:27,170 --> 00:18:24,120
audit of his tax returns and then having

384
00:18:29,540 --> 00:18:27,180
that happen to me shortly thereafter and

385
00:18:31,880 --> 00:18:29,550
maybe the reason I bring it up is the

386
00:18:34,880 --> 00:18:31,890
fact that you have a book out about the

387
00:18:37,190 --> 00:18:34,890
influence of the trickster so in this

388
00:18:40,280 --> 00:18:37,200
case do we think that maybe there was

389
00:18:43,220 --> 00:18:40,290
some trickster influence going on here

390
00:18:47,210 --> 00:18:43,230
well possibly people who are heavily

391
00:18:50,390 --> 00:18:47,220
engaged in paranormal pursuit

392
00:18:53,870 --> 00:18:50,400
are generally a bit marginal and people

393
00:18:55,750 --> 00:18:53,880
who engage in this study are probably a

394
00:18:58,070 --> 00:18:55,760
little bit more likely to have

395
00:19:00,110 --> 00:18:58,080
synchronicities some of those

396
00:19:02,840 --> 00:19:00,120
synchronicities are not altogether

397
00:19:06,440 --> 00:19:02,850
pleasant and because the trickster is

398
00:19:10,510 --> 00:19:06,450
sort of a subversive character there it

399
00:19:15,919 --> 00:19:10,520
might just be that that calls upon

400
00:19:18,320 --> 00:19:15,929
horses that tend to marginalize and it

401
00:19:20,000 --> 00:19:18,330
makes life a little more difficult not

402
00:19:23,570 --> 00:19:20,010
saying this happens all the time but

403
00:19:26,240 --> 00:19:23,580
I've heard enough accounts of people

404
00:19:29,450 --> 00:19:26,250
getting involved in these fields that

405
00:19:30,770 --> 00:19:29,460
have had some drawbacks you're not

406
00:19:33,950 --> 00:19:30,780
really part of the mainstream when

407
00:19:35,750 --> 00:19:33,960
you're doing this and the world and

408
00:19:38,060 --> 00:19:35,760
universe may just work a little bit

409
00:19:41,390 --> 00:19:38,070
against that interest there are

410
00:19:43,220 --> 00:19:41,400
typically costs for heavy involvement in

411
00:19:46,399 --> 00:19:43,230
the phenomena and if you talk to

412
00:19:50,230 --> 00:19:46,409
streamer and listen to him he certainly

413
00:19:53,830 --> 00:19:50,240
paid a real price for his public

414
00:19:57,860 --> 00:19:53,840
presentation of his experiences he's had

415
00:19:59,990 --> 00:19:57,870
difficult times I have a lot of respect

416
00:20:00,740 --> 00:20:00,000
for what he's done but I don't think

417
00:20:03,220 --> 00:20:00,750
it's been easy

418
00:20:05,799 --> 00:20:03,230
I take event that you believe in

419
00:20:10,010 --> 00:20:05,809
streamers claims about his abductions

420
00:20:12,529 --> 00:20:10,020
well I think he is trying to describe

421
00:20:16,190 --> 00:20:12,539
and report them as well as he can I

422
00:20:21,169 --> 00:20:16,200
don't believe he's making these up he

423
00:20:23,090 --> 00:20:21,179
has admitted that he was heavily

424
00:20:25,760 --> 00:20:23,100
influenced by science fiction of course

425
00:20:28,190 --> 00:20:25,770
he was a science fiction writer himself

426
00:20:32,000 --> 00:20:28,200
and so in his life

427
00:20:35,419 --> 00:20:32,010
these phenomena and experiences tend to

428
00:20:37,010 --> 00:20:35,429
blur together I certainly don't believe

429
00:20:40,539 --> 00:20:37,020
he's a charlatan not to make a bunch of

430
00:20:44,690 --> 00:20:40,549
money like reporting these things

431
00:20:48,230 --> 00:20:44,700
everything I've been watching him

432
00:20:50,960 --> 00:20:48,240
meeting him I take him seriously doesn't

433
00:20:53,060 --> 00:20:50,970
mean I accept the literal reality

434
00:20:56,419 --> 00:20:53,070
necessarily and I don't think streamer

435
00:20:58,039 --> 00:20:56,429
necessarily does of some of these beings

436
00:21:00,890 --> 00:20:58,049
and phenomena we don't know what they

437
00:21:03,890 --> 00:21:00,900
are they may be in some kind of in

438
00:21:07,130 --> 00:21:03,900
Queen area or some for lack of a better

439
00:21:07,700 --> 00:21:07,140
word different dimension but I take him

440
00:21:09,980 --> 00:21:07,710
seriously

441
00:21:12,650 --> 00:21:09,990
now we've asked street bird to come on

442
00:21:14,600 --> 00:21:12,660
the power cast a few times a couple of

443
00:21:19,160 --> 00:21:14,610
times he's accepted then thought better

444
00:21:22,430 --> 00:21:19,170
of it I ran up to him at one of the

445
00:21:25,430 --> 00:21:22,440
international UFO Congress meetings here

446
00:21:29,120 --> 00:21:25,440
in Arizona and I said why don't you come

447
00:21:31,820 --> 00:21:29,130
on the show and he says well you're a

448
00:21:33,590 --> 00:21:31,830
bunch of skeptics aren't you and I

449
00:21:36,110 --> 00:21:33,600
responded look we'll ask your hard

450
00:21:37,610 --> 00:21:36,120
questions but we're gonna be fair we'll

451
00:21:39,590 --> 00:21:37,620
give you a chance to express your point

452
00:21:41,510 --> 00:21:39,600
of view and he said well maybe when I

453
00:21:44,510 --> 00:21:41,520
get another book out but I don't know I

454
00:21:46,430 --> 00:21:44,520
would put him on you know I really would

455
00:21:48,950 --> 00:21:46,440
put him on the show because I think

456
00:21:51,590 --> 00:21:48,960
Chris and I would certainly give him an

457
00:21:53,930 --> 00:21:51,600
interesting experience we won't fawn

458
00:21:55,700 --> 00:21:53,940
over him we won't attack him we'll give

459
00:21:56,840 --> 00:21:55,710
him a chance to express his point of

460
00:21:59,660 --> 00:21:56,850
view are you in regular touch with

461
00:22:02,720 --> 00:21:59,670
streamer at all oh no no no I'm not I

462
00:22:05,419 --> 00:22:02,730
believe he has his own show so he may

463
00:22:10,100 --> 00:22:05,429
see it as sort of competition you know

464
00:22:11,780 --> 00:22:10,110
I'm just speculating here but I you know

465
00:22:13,970 --> 00:22:11,790
I've met him a few times at the New York

466
00:22:17,240 --> 00:22:13,980
for teen society and one or two other

467
00:22:19,910 --> 00:22:17,250
conferences but that was about it we

468
00:22:22,880 --> 00:22:19,920
have George Hansen he's author of a book

469
00:22:27,020 --> 00:22:22,890
published in 2001 but worthy of

470
00:22:29,240 --> 00:22:27,030
discussion in this day and age it's

471
00:22:34,130 --> 00:22:29,250
about the trickster

472
00:22:35,930 --> 00:22:34,140
and the paranormal oh wow and we've got

473
00:22:37,730 --> 00:22:35,940
our friendly trickster here Chris

474
00:22:41,419 --> 00:22:37,740
O'Brien who might start giving us a

475
00:22:46,980 --> 00:22:41,429
trickster response when I say with gene

476
00:22:53,020 --> 00:22:50,350
the nation's largest independently owned

477
00:22:59,220 --> 00:22:53,030
and operated talk radio network the

478
00:23:05,380 --> 00:23:03,250
is there a secret UFO agenda to strange

479
00:23:07,840 --> 00:23:05,390
creatures from the darkest corners of

480
00:23:10,630 --> 00:23:07,850
the mind roam the earth is there

481
00:23:14,290 --> 00:23:10,640
evidence for mind control time travel or

482
00:23:15,910 --> 00:23:14,300
devious government conspiracies find out

483
00:23:18,490 --> 00:23:15,920
the inside scoop on the latest

484
00:23:21,100 --> 00:23:18,500
conspiracies paranormal activity and

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00:23:24,040 --> 00:23:21,110
important phenomena when you subscribe

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to Tim Beckley's conspiracy term it's

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00:23:45,400 --> 00:23:40,490
sent an email with your name and address

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00:23:51,250 --> 00:23:45,410
to Mister UFO at what TV dotnet that's

494
00:23:54,040 --> 00:23:51,260
mr. UFO at web TV net find out what they

495
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don't want you to know

496
00:24:01,279 --> 00:23:58,710
[Music]

497
00:24:03,169 --> 00:24:01,289
hi this is Steve Sanchez and based on a

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[Music]

577
00:27:17,510 --> 00:27:15,260
on the power cast we have George Hansen

578
00:27:19,280 --> 00:27:17,520
joining us for the first time and I

579
00:27:21,080 --> 00:27:19,290
think after you hear him you'll know why

580
00:27:23,420 --> 00:27:21,090
he's got to come back

581
00:27:26,890 --> 00:27:23,430
he's offer her book called the trickster

582
00:27:28,760 --> 00:27:26,900
and the paranormal and that takes you to

583
00:27:31,520 --> 00:27:28,770
politically-incorrect

584
00:27:33,950 --> 00:27:31,530
realms of UFO and paranormal research

585
00:27:35,300 --> 00:27:33,960
George let's continue with abductions

586
00:27:35,780 --> 00:27:35,310
here because we talked about whitley

587
00:27:38,720 --> 00:27:35,790
strieber

588
00:27:39,200 --> 00:27:38,730
and once again folks the invitation is

589
00:27:42,140 --> 00:27:39,210
open

590
00:27:44,660 --> 00:27:42,150
I'm sure Whitley is aware of us and

591
00:27:47,860 --> 00:27:44,670
sometimes even listens if you want to

592
00:27:50,840 --> 00:27:47,870
come on Whitley we'll give you a fair

593
00:27:55,340 --> 00:27:50,850
reception we'll leave with that let's

594
00:27:58,370 --> 00:27:55,350
move on okay George you investigated

595
00:28:02,180 --> 00:27:58,380
another abduction case one involving a

596
00:28:04,550 --> 00:28:02,190
woman that occurred on the Brooklyn

597
00:28:07,370 --> 00:28:04,560
Bridge and this is the one that was made

598
00:28:09,920 --> 00:28:07,380
famous in a book by Budd Hopkins we had

599
00:28:12,140 --> 00:28:09,930
Budd Hopkins on and a number of times in

600
00:28:14,720 --> 00:28:12,150
the final years of his life and we talk

601
00:28:17,000 --> 00:28:14,730
somewhat about this we've also had Peter

602
00:28:18,920 --> 00:28:17,010
Robbins on of course who did left at

603
00:28:21,440 --> 00:28:18,930
Eastgate with Larry Warren but also work

604
00:28:23,570 --> 00:28:21,450
with Budd Hopkins on abduction cases and

605
00:28:25,960 --> 00:28:23,580
I take it from the things you've said

606
00:28:29,230 --> 00:28:25,970
about this particular case

607
00:28:32,080 --> 00:28:29,240
you don't buy it no I certainly don't

608
00:28:34,030 --> 00:28:32,090
I think it's a wonderful story I'm

609
00:28:38,170 --> 00:28:34,040
certainly not the only one to be

610
00:28:40,870 --> 00:28:38,180
skeptical of this case today but Hopkins

611
00:28:43,870 --> 00:28:40,880
former wife Carol Rainey is also quite

612
00:28:46,870 --> 00:28:43,880
skeptical of the case and she had even

613
00:28:49,750 --> 00:28:46,880
more involvement with first-hand

614
00:28:52,810 --> 00:28:49,760
accounts and direct experience with the

615
00:28:56,020 --> 00:28:52,820
so called witnesses and especially the

616
00:28:58,150 --> 00:28:56,030
evidence and I believe al Rainey will

617
00:29:00,900 --> 00:28:58,160
probably be publishing a bit more she

618
00:29:06,100 --> 00:29:00,910
has published some things on the website

619
00:29:08,170 --> 00:29:06,110
so yet the Linda Napolitano case also

620
00:29:10,090 --> 00:29:08,180
known as a Linda Cortile case did

621
00:29:12,640 --> 00:29:10,100
generate an enormous amount of attention

622
00:29:16,810 --> 00:29:12,650
back in the 1990s and what Hopkins book

623
00:29:20,140 --> 00:29:16,820
was witnessed and it's an engaging read

624
00:29:23,800 --> 00:29:20,150
but I don't find it at all compelling I

625
00:29:26,920 --> 00:29:23,810
think it's a very nicely fabricated

626
00:29:30,430 --> 00:29:26,930
story but I don't see any good evidence

627
00:29:33,940 --> 00:29:30,440
to accept the reality of it now I

628
00:29:36,760 --> 00:29:33,950
wouldn't entirely reject the idea that

629
00:29:39,940 --> 00:29:36,770
perhaps Linda herself had some kind of

630
00:29:44,110 --> 00:29:39,950
UFO or abduction type of experience

631
00:29:46,600 --> 00:29:44,120
there and as a possibility but the whole

632
00:29:48,430 --> 00:29:46,610
story about being taken aboard a flying

633
00:29:51,460 --> 00:29:48,440
saucer along with the UN

634
00:29:56,340 --> 00:29:51,470
secretary-general and then later being

635
00:30:01,090 --> 00:29:56,350
kidnapped by agents of some government

636
00:30:02,590 --> 00:30:01,100
probably well we don't think I don't

637
00:30:06,040 --> 00:30:02,600
think it was really clear just which

638
00:30:08,920 --> 00:30:06,050
agencies now and it was alleging that

639
00:30:11,800 --> 00:30:08,930
the kidnappers were from but it's a

640
00:30:14,710 --> 00:30:11,810
wonderful story but I don't think that

641
00:30:17,650 --> 00:30:14,720
Linda or bud really provided convincing

642
00:30:19,570 --> 00:30:17,660
evidence and if Carol Rainey is even

643
00:30:23,230 --> 00:30:19,580
more skeptic is more quite skeptical now

644
00:30:27,640 --> 00:30:23,240
I think there is very little reason to

645
00:30:30,190 --> 00:30:27,650
take the case seriously as its as its

646
00:30:32,830 --> 00:30:30,200
claimed that it has been claimed

647
00:30:37,900 --> 00:30:32,840
now of course one of the arguments made

648
00:30:39,970 --> 00:30:37,910
about Carol Rainey's remarks is that she

649
00:30:42,220 --> 00:30:39,980
is the ex-wife

650
00:30:44,440 --> 00:30:42,230
has an axe to grind and that could be

651
00:30:47,320 --> 00:30:44,450
good or bad depending on your point of

652
00:30:50,169 --> 00:30:47,330
view the other is the timing that her

653
00:30:53,620 --> 00:30:50,179
first publication of her opinions about

654
00:30:56,110 --> 00:30:53,630
this case occurred when Budd Hopkins was

655
00:30:57,940 --> 00:30:56,120
known to be dying of cancer and maybe

656
00:30:59,950 --> 00:30:57,950
the timing was off and maybe that is

657
00:31:03,220 --> 00:30:59,960
what also colored anything she had to

658
00:31:05,080 --> 00:31:03,230
say well I don't think either the case

659
00:31:08,560 --> 00:31:05,090
and I am spoken with Carol quite a

660
00:31:11,470 --> 00:31:08,570
number of times I think she she still

661
00:31:15,039 --> 00:31:11,480
has a very high regard for but in many

662
00:31:17,409 --> 00:31:15,049
ways regarding the timing well that was

663
00:31:21,610 --> 00:31:17,419
also around the time of the Emma Woods

664
00:31:23,950 --> 00:31:21,620
case and that is a very like a case that

665
00:31:25,980 --> 00:31:23,960
raised concerns and a whole lot of

666
00:31:31,750 --> 00:31:25,990
people that involved Budd Hopkins

667
00:31:35,049 --> 00:31:31,760
colleague David Jacobs and who attempted

668
00:31:38,260 --> 00:31:35,059
to who was hypnotizing a woman whose

669
00:31:40,680 --> 00:31:38,270
pseudonym was Emma woods and tried to

670
00:31:44,470 --> 00:31:40,690
induce a multiple personality disorder

671
00:31:47,140 --> 00:31:44,480
there were lots of other serious ethical

672
00:31:51,039 --> 00:31:47,150
issues raised Terrell Rainey and others

673
00:31:55,659 --> 00:31:51,049
became very alarmed and thought okay the

674
00:31:58,810 --> 00:31:55,669
abduction claims may have some pathology

675
00:32:01,090 --> 00:31:58,820
associate and with the case and

676
00:32:03,520 --> 00:32:01,100
particularly the investigators there is

677
00:32:06,520 --> 00:32:03,530
something really wrong here well here's

678
00:32:09,430 --> 00:32:06,530
the thing that bothered me about it and

679
00:32:11,909 --> 00:32:09,440
I find fault on both sides I think that

680
00:32:14,830 --> 00:32:11,919
Emma Woods whoever her real name is

681
00:32:18,490 --> 00:32:14,840
struck me is a very troubled individual

682
00:32:22,030 --> 00:32:18,500
yeah and very much so and a person of

683
00:32:24,930 --> 00:32:22,040
that sort who reportedly underwent a

684
00:32:28,240 --> 00:32:24,940
series of abductions should be treated

685
00:32:30,450 --> 00:32:28,250
by someone with care and respect and

686
00:32:32,650 --> 00:32:30,460
knowledge and the ability to handle it

687
00:32:34,330 --> 00:32:32,660
professionally but what seems to have

688
00:32:38,010 --> 00:32:34,340
happened here is that the therapist she

689
00:32:41,200 --> 00:32:38,020
was visiting in I think in New Zealand

690
00:32:43,690 --> 00:32:41,210
referred her to Budd Hopkins and David

691
00:32:44,860 --> 00:32:43,700
Jacobs back in the United States which I

692
00:32:47,710 --> 00:32:44,870
think it's gotta be the wackiest

693
00:32:50,230 --> 00:32:47,720
decision in the world because why do you

694
00:32:52,330 --> 00:32:50,240
have someone contact people on the other

695
00:32:53,750 --> 00:32:52,340
side of the world forget about

696
00:32:56,480 --> 00:32:53,760
everything else

697
00:32:58,909 --> 00:32:56,490
in other side of the world to get

698
00:33:01,669 --> 00:32:58,919
assistance now the second thing here is

699
00:33:03,919 --> 00:33:01,679
there are disputes over every

700
00:33:05,750 --> 00:33:03,929
interaction she had with David Jacobs

701
00:33:07,940 --> 00:33:05,760
I've read some of his version I've read

702
00:33:10,519 --> 00:33:07,950
what she has to say I think at the end

703
00:33:12,680 --> 00:33:10,529
of the day and I only get into all the

704
00:33:14,810 --> 00:33:12,690
details are very confusing and she's

705
00:33:17,419 --> 00:33:14,820
already attacked me and Chris for things

706
00:33:20,659 --> 00:33:17,429
that we instead implied or didn't say

707
00:33:23,419 --> 00:33:20,669
one time Chris made one little crack

708
00:33:26,289 --> 00:33:23,429
about something she did or said and I

709
00:33:29,509 --> 00:33:26,299
was attacked for it the key here is that

710
00:33:33,289 --> 00:33:29,519
David Jacobs may have been trying to be

711
00:33:35,840 --> 00:33:33,299
helpful but had no business taking on

712
00:33:38,269 --> 00:33:35,850
this case it's like trying to grab a

713
00:33:40,820 --> 00:33:38,279
tiger by the tail forget about all the

714
00:33:43,310 --> 00:33:40,830
specifics he had no business getting

715
00:33:45,710 --> 00:33:43,320
involved because it was way beyond what

716
00:33:48,440 --> 00:33:45,720
he could handle he couldn't possibly

717
00:33:50,990 --> 00:33:48,450
hypnotize somebody on the phone or a

718
00:33:53,659 --> 00:33:51,000
Skype connection there and know the

719
00:33:56,029 --> 00:33:53,669
person's even being subjected to a

720
00:33:58,879 --> 00:33:56,039
hypnotic trance what he tried to do I

721
00:34:01,639 --> 00:33:58,889
guess was to be helpful in a very

722
00:34:04,669 --> 00:34:01,649
difficult case he got in over his head

723
00:34:07,310 --> 00:34:04,679
which was unfortunate I think at the end

724
00:34:10,599 --> 00:34:07,320
of the day she seems to believe she's

725
00:34:13,280 --> 00:34:10,609
perfectly normal and that also is

726
00:34:17,899 --> 00:34:13,290
clearly not the case I don't know what

727
00:34:19,819 --> 00:34:17,909
her problem is but she needs some kind

728
00:34:23,149 --> 00:34:19,829
of help to deal with her experiences

729
00:34:25,639 --> 00:34:23,159
just as the same way David Jacobs should

730
00:34:28,059 --> 00:34:25,649
have stayed away which I think a lot of

731
00:34:32,359 --> 00:34:28,069
people told him that becomes unfortunate

732
00:34:34,430 --> 00:34:32,369
now let's go back to this case involving

733
00:34:37,250 --> 00:34:34,440
Linda Napolitano okay the Brooklyn

734
00:34:39,440 --> 00:34:37,260
Bridge case and that is is this

735
00:34:41,930 --> 00:34:39,450
something where Budd Hopkins was just

736
00:34:45,169 --> 00:34:41,940
taken in or was he aware there was

737
00:34:47,450 --> 00:34:45,179
deception involved oh I I'm convinced

738
00:34:49,520 --> 00:34:47,460
that Budd was honest that to the best of

739
00:34:53,059 --> 00:34:49,530
his ability I think he was certainly

740
00:34:55,599 --> 00:34:53,069
mistaken in many many ways but I tend to

741
00:34:57,980 --> 00:34:55,609
believe that Budd was completely sincere

742
00:35:03,200 --> 00:34:57,990
there's very little doubt in my mind

743
00:35:06,960 --> 00:35:03,210
about that he may have some he probably

744
00:35:10,079 --> 00:35:06,970
had hints that there were

745
00:35:13,020 --> 00:35:10,089
deceptive aspects and I think more will

746
00:35:15,569 --> 00:35:13,030
come out on that eventually but he would

747
00:35:18,530 --> 00:35:15,579
disregard them and I think this was buds

748
00:35:21,240 --> 00:35:18,540
nature it wasn't like he was trying to

749
00:35:23,430 --> 00:35:21,250
deceive his readers or other people he

750
00:35:26,760 --> 00:35:23,440
just said okay that's not that important

751
00:35:28,800 --> 00:35:26,770
maybe she fabricated a thing here or

752
00:35:31,710 --> 00:35:28,810
there but it was very insignificant

753
00:35:34,589 --> 00:35:31,720
I think bud was able to justify him in

754
00:35:39,870 --> 00:35:34,599
his own mind the contrary evidence and

755
00:35:42,750 --> 00:35:39,880
and to exclude that so I feel confident

756
00:35:46,530 --> 00:35:42,760
that bud was trying to be honest to the

757
00:35:49,410 --> 00:35:46,540
best of his ability he didn't and when

758
00:35:52,470 --> 00:35:49,420
he became such a believer and so

759
00:35:54,150 --> 00:35:52,480
publicly committed to it his mind and

760
00:35:57,900 --> 00:35:54,160
his thinking process would just work

761
00:36:00,630 --> 00:35:57,910
that way so I don't really think he was

762
00:36:02,520 --> 00:36:00,640
party to some intentional deception I

763
00:36:07,859 --> 00:36:02,530
think he was Trust is a very fragile

764
00:36:10,829 --> 00:36:07,869
thing yeah it is it's it's a fragile

765
00:36:12,329 --> 00:36:10,839
thing but as he becomes more publicly

766
00:36:15,660 --> 00:36:12,339
associated with it more publicly

767
00:36:17,790 --> 00:36:15,670
committed to the case he is less likely

768
00:36:20,190 --> 00:36:17,800
to be able to step back and look at the

769
00:36:22,530 --> 00:36:20,200
whole picture and see the real problems

770
00:36:25,380 --> 00:36:22,540
so in the particular case here is he

771
00:36:29,819 --> 00:36:25,390
became so committed to this particular

772
00:36:32,130 --> 00:36:29,829
case in its reality that he didn't give

773
00:36:34,319 --> 00:36:32,140
the proper wait to stuff that might

774
00:36:36,150 --> 00:36:34,329
breed skepticism let's get back to that

775
00:36:38,640 --> 00:36:36,160
in a moment we have George Hansen

776
00:36:39,800 --> 00:36:38,650
joining us with Jean and Christian the

777
00:36:47,589 --> 00:36:39,810
Peres ghost

778
00:36:52,749 --> 00:36:50,979
great minds they collide the network for

779
00:36:57,420 --> 00:36:52,759
the independent-minded

780
00:37:00,099 --> 00:36:57,430
the genesis communications network G C

781
00:37:02,049 --> 00:37:00,109
attack of the rock AIDS has been well

782
00:37:03,880 --> 00:37:02,059
received by critics and readers alike

783
00:37:05,079 --> 00:37:03,890
it's a thrill a minute story you'll

784
00:37:07,089 --> 00:37:05,089
never forget

785
00:37:09,670 --> 00:37:07,099
a former US military intelligence

786
00:37:12,339 --> 00:37:09,680
officer is haunted by intense dreams

787
00:37:14,620 --> 00:37:12,349
about a beautiful woman pleading for his

788
00:37:17,349 --> 00:37:14,630
help after a terrible battle in outer

789
00:37:19,630 --> 00:37:17,359
space but the dreams turn out to be true

790
00:37:22,150 --> 00:37:19,640
and thrust him into a telepathic love

791
00:37:24,759 --> 00:37:22,160
affair with a woman whose faraway planet

792
00:37:27,729 --> 00:37:24,769
is intent on destroying the earth and

793
00:37:30,459 --> 00:37:27,739
now the gripping tale continues in the

794
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coming of the protectors it's the second

795
00:37:35,079 --> 00:37:33,199
book of the rock codes trilogy a galaxy

796
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spanning adventure that fits our hapless

797
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heroes against powerful fanatical

798
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enemies that threaten the lives of

799
00:37:45,279 --> 00:37:42,799
freedom loving beings everywhere attack

800
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of the rock aids and the coming of the

801
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protectors classic science fiction at

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882
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883
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884
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this is the wrong flower cluster of f1

885
00:41:10,560 --> 00:41:08,200
cycle few other books when you're

886
00:41:16,300 --> 00:41:10,570
listening to the podcast

887
00:41:20,810 --> 00:41:18,710
with Gene and Chris in the power castes

888
00:41:22,850 --> 00:41:20,820
we have George Hansen who wrote the

889
00:41:24,320 --> 00:41:22,860
trickster in the paranormal and we're

890
00:41:27,020 --> 00:41:24,330
talking right now about the Linda

891
00:41:30,590 --> 00:41:27,030
Napolitano case and witness by Budd

892
00:41:32,960 --> 00:41:30,600
Hopkins and your belief George that he

893
00:41:35,690 --> 00:41:32,970
tried sincerely to investigate this case

894
00:41:37,820 --> 00:41:35,700
but maybe got too emotionally involved

895
00:41:39,950 --> 00:41:37,830
and therefore overlooked troubling

896
00:41:42,650 --> 00:41:39,960
aspects to it now isn't that also

897
00:41:44,660 --> 00:41:42,660
without expressing an opinion one way or

898
00:41:46,820 --> 00:41:44,670
the other about this case isn't this

899
00:41:50,270 --> 00:41:46,830
also a problem in the UFO field in

900
00:41:52,970 --> 00:41:50,280
general where we have well-known

901
00:41:55,820 --> 00:41:52,980
researchers who take a particular point

902
00:41:58,820 --> 00:41:55,830
of view or favorite case or a theory and

903
00:42:00,860 --> 00:41:58,830
when it's shown there's reason to be

904
00:42:02,240 --> 00:42:00,870
skeptical they just don't want to give

905
00:42:04,700 --> 00:42:02,250
it up I'm thinking of Stanton Friedman

906
00:42:06,530 --> 00:42:04,710
and the mj-12 documents it's like a tar

907
00:42:09,110 --> 00:42:06,540
baby one once it's stuck to you it's

908
00:42:12,100 --> 00:42:09,120
hard to get it off exactly I agree with

909
00:42:15,880 --> 00:42:12,110
you but this is true in all science and

910
00:42:20,150 --> 00:42:15,890
almost all areas of human endeavor it is

911
00:42:23,240 --> 00:42:20,160
more severe in paranormal fields because

912
00:42:25,700 --> 00:42:23,250
of the nature of this phenomena people

913
00:42:27,950 --> 00:42:25,710
are more prone to be taken in there is

914
00:42:32,060 --> 00:42:27,960
this trickster aspect which involves

915
00:42:34,070 --> 00:42:32,070
this deceptive aspect it also typically

916
00:42:37,070 --> 00:42:34,080
involves a blurring between imagination

917
00:42:40,270 --> 00:42:37,080
and reality fact and fiction this

918
00:42:43,940 --> 00:42:40,280
paranormal field is a border area and

919
00:42:46,580 --> 00:42:43,950
that makes it particularly difficult to

920
00:42:49,940 --> 00:42:46,590
deal with and that's one reason it is

921
00:42:52,490 --> 00:42:49,950
kept marginalized and away from what was

922
00:42:54,710 --> 00:42:52,500
not taught in universities very few

923
00:42:57,040 --> 00:42:54,720
corporations take it any seriously it is

924
00:43:00,650 --> 00:42:57,050
very big in the entertainment industry

925
00:43:03,110 --> 00:43:00,660
which focuses on fiction so this

926
00:43:05,810 --> 00:43:03,120
blurring between fact and fiction is

927
00:43:08,060 --> 00:43:05,820
often a primary characteristic of

928
00:43:11,420 --> 00:43:08,070
paranormal phenomena so we shouldn't be

929
00:43:13,490 --> 00:43:11,430
surprised that things like Stanton

930
00:43:16,190 --> 00:43:13,500
Friedman getting sucked into the mj-12

931
00:43:19,880 --> 00:43:16,200
documents or Budd Hopkins being taken in

932
00:43:21,230 --> 00:43:19,890
by the Linda Napolitano case this goes

933
00:43:23,570 --> 00:43:21,240
with the territory

934
00:43:26,500 --> 00:43:23,580
and if people do not understand that

935
00:43:28,810 --> 00:43:26,510
then they really have not understood my

936
00:43:31,270 --> 00:43:28,820
about the paranormal okay so this is

937
00:43:34,510 --> 00:43:31,280
part and parcel of any endeavor power

938
00:43:35,950 --> 00:43:34,520
normal or otherwise but definitely

939
00:43:38,230 --> 00:43:35,960
paranormal super now so it is

940
00:43:40,990 --> 00:43:38,240
particularly strong particularly

941
00:43:42,940 --> 00:43:41,000
difficult aspect and this is fundamental

942
00:43:45,430 --> 00:43:42,950
to it alright let's look at this problem

943
00:43:49,630 --> 00:43:45,440
in more detail here which is if he gets

944
00:43:52,270 --> 00:43:49,640
sucked up in a myth or a possible hoax

945
00:43:54,970 --> 00:43:52,280
or something that directs you into the

946
00:43:56,140 --> 00:43:54,980
wrong place how do you recover from that

947
00:43:58,810 --> 00:43:56,150
I mean it's not easy

948
00:44:00,790 --> 00:43:58,820
once you're wedded to a belief you're

949
00:44:03,190 --> 00:44:00,800
convinced in your hearts that something

950
00:44:05,320 --> 00:44:03,200
is true it may not be true but how do

951
00:44:07,630 --> 00:44:05,330
you convince somebody however

952
00:44:08,290 --> 00:44:07,640
well-meaning that they're looking in the

953
00:44:10,480 --> 00:44:08,300
wrong direction

954
00:44:12,250 --> 00:44:10,490
well you're not going to be able to

955
00:44:15,790 --> 00:44:12,260
convince many people what you need to do

956
00:44:17,680 --> 00:44:15,800
for yourself is have a number of friends

957
00:44:20,980 --> 00:44:17,690
in college you can go to and discuss

958
00:44:23,470 --> 00:44:20,990
cases with before you do this publicly I

959
00:44:26,080 --> 00:44:23,480
make a point of visiting skeptics groups

960
00:44:28,150 --> 00:44:26,090
and just following what they say I try

961
00:44:30,160 --> 00:44:28,160
to have skeptics who are friends that I

962
00:44:33,130 --> 00:44:30,170
can say hey what do you think of this I

963
00:44:36,070 --> 00:44:33,140
try to draw from a whole variety of

964
00:44:39,640 --> 00:44:36,080
people I have a number of go-to people

965
00:44:42,070 --> 00:44:39,650
who I value when I value their opinions

966
00:44:44,770 --> 00:44:42,080
I think that's really essential

967
00:44:47,080 --> 00:44:44,780
especially for people who do not work in

968
00:44:49,390 --> 00:44:47,090
like I have the advantage of working in

969
00:44:51,670 --> 00:44:49,400
a laboratory two laboratories for a

970
00:44:54,940 --> 00:44:51,680
period of eight years there were was a

971
00:44:57,820 --> 00:44:54,950
lot of very critical back-and-forth on

972
00:44:59,800 --> 00:44:57,830
weekly sometimes even daily basis about

973
00:45:02,680 --> 00:44:59,810
cases and how you do your methodology

974
00:45:05,590 --> 00:45:02,690
how you do statistics we would have

975
00:45:08,430 --> 00:45:05,600
meetings and we would tear apart other

976
00:45:10,540 --> 00:45:08,440
people's research this is part of

977
00:45:13,450 --> 00:45:10,550
academic and intellectual and scientific

978
00:45:15,880 --> 00:45:13,460
culture in the UFO field

979
00:45:18,850 --> 00:45:15,890
very few people engage in this but you

980
00:45:20,880 --> 00:45:18,860
have to learn how to do that and when

981
00:45:23,440 --> 00:45:20,890
there is very little

982
00:45:27,100 --> 00:45:23,450
institutionalization and very few places

983
00:45:29,080 --> 00:45:27,110
one can learn how to do this the

984
00:45:31,660 --> 00:45:29,090
critical evaluation it becomes rather

985
00:45:34,150 --> 00:45:31,670
difficult but it's essential and until

986
00:45:36,070 --> 00:45:34,160
that goes until people realize that they

987
00:45:39,520 --> 00:45:36,080
need to do that and have that

988
00:45:39,730 --> 00:45:39,530
interaction on a regular basis we're

989
00:45:41,560 --> 00:45:39,740
going

990
00:45:44,290 --> 00:45:41,570
continue to have these kinds of problems

991
00:45:46,170 --> 00:45:44,300
in the field well you know for the

992
00:45:49,450 --> 00:45:46,180
benefit of our some of our new listeners

993
00:45:51,370 --> 00:45:49,460
George why don't we give them a little

994
00:45:53,710 --> 00:45:51,380
bit of your background so that folks

995
00:45:57,060 --> 00:45:53,720
know exactly when you say you were

996
00:46:00,430 --> 00:45:57,070
involved in a couple of laboratory

997
00:46:02,620 --> 00:46:00,440
situations for eight years you were in

998
00:46:04,540 --> 00:46:02,630
parapsychology for a number of years and

999
00:46:06,609 --> 00:46:04,550
you still have your you still kind of

1000
00:46:08,530 --> 00:46:06,619
have your connections within the

1001
00:46:10,720 --> 00:46:08,540
parapsychological community of academia

1002
00:46:12,520 --> 00:46:10,730
why don't you give us a real quick

1003
00:46:15,340 --> 00:46:12,530
thumbnail sketch of your background for

1004
00:46:18,280 --> 00:46:15,350
some of our newer listings okay I worked

1005
00:46:20,470 --> 00:46:18,290
three years full time at what's now

1006
00:46:24,420 --> 00:46:20,480
called the Rhine Research Center in

1007
00:46:26,830 --> 00:46:24,430
Durham North Carolina and five years at

1008
00:46:30,190 --> 00:46:26,840
psychophysical research laboratories in

1009
00:46:33,040 --> 00:46:30,200
Princeton New Jersey that was in the

1010
00:46:35,859 --> 00:46:33,050
1980s and during the 1980s there were

1011
00:46:38,859 --> 00:46:35,869
six laboratories in the United States

1012
00:46:42,010 --> 00:46:38,869
that were doing full-time parapsychology

1013
00:46:46,599 --> 00:46:42,020
research with full-time employees was

1014
00:46:50,590 --> 00:46:46,609
not a big operation however that period

1015
00:46:53,440 --> 00:46:50,600
was the period of the greatest financial

1016
00:46:55,810 --> 00:46:53,450
investment in parapsychology research it

1017
00:46:57,430 --> 00:46:55,820
was the high point going back for more

1018
00:46:59,859 --> 00:46:57,440
than a hundred years and going forward

1019
00:47:02,170 --> 00:46:59,869
past eighty that was the time when there

1020
00:47:08,530 --> 00:47:02,180
was the most professional level research

1021
00:47:10,540 --> 00:47:08,540
done there were a number of university

1022
00:47:12,820 --> 00:47:10,550
professors who were also conducting

1023
00:47:16,410 --> 00:47:12,830
research at that time today there is

1024
00:47:19,359 --> 00:47:16,420
very very little I can identify two

1025
00:47:22,390 --> 00:47:19,369
laboratories of today that are doing

1026
00:47:24,640 --> 00:47:22,400
some research the Ryan center still in

1027
00:47:27,160 --> 00:47:24,650
North Carolina much much less activity

1028
00:47:28,870 --> 00:47:27,170
there than there was 30 years ago

1029
00:47:32,770 --> 00:47:28,880
there's also being sued for noetic

1030
00:47:34,570 --> 00:47:32,780
Sciences out in California and there are

1031
00:47:38,040 --> 00:47:34,580
individuals who are doing some very good

1032
00:47:40,650 --> 00:47:38,050
research too but there is much less

1033
00:47:45,490 --> 00:47:40,660
institutionalization there are there are

1034
00:47:48,040 --> 00:47:45,500
there are much many fewer educational

1035
00:47:50,800 --> 00:47:48,050
opportunities so it's becoming more

1036
00:47:53,500 --> 00:47:50,810
difficult to do quality level research

1037
00:47:56,020 --> 00:47:53,510
in paranormal fields that's

1038
00:47:58,090 --> 00:47:56,030
why do you think it's it's fallen off is

1039
00:48:00,190 --> 00:47:58,100
there like too much of a giggle factor

1040
00:48:01,930 --> 00:48:00,200
or a slime factor involved with it or

1041
00:48:04,420 --> 00:48:01,940
was it because of the results that

1042
00:48:07,030 --> 00:48:04,430
people were coming up with was it too

1043
00:48:09,730 --> 00:48:07,040
inconclusive to warrant further funding

1044
00:48:13,570 --> 00:48:09,740
that sort of thing or government

1045
00:48:17,349 --> 00:48:13,580
contracts this is a very very long and

1046
00:48:20,740 --> 00:48:17,359
involved discussion this marginalization

1047
00:48:23,410 --> 00:48:20,750
is pushing this to the side has been

1048
00:48:27,609 --> 00:48:23,420
going on not for a hundred years but for

1049
00:48:30,099 --> 00:48:27,619
over 2,000 years I've got a YouTube

1050
00:48:32,080 --> 00:48:30,109
video I did a lecture in New York City

1051
00:48:35,380 --> 00:48:32,090
the audio unfortunately isn't too bad

1052
00:48:36,790 --> 00:48:35,390
very good but it's whatever in the

1053
00:48:42,580 --> 00:48:36,800
titles whatever happened to

1054
00:48:46,540 --> 00:48:42,590
parapsychology large complex societies

1055
00:48:51,220 --> 00:48:46,550
by their nature tend to marginalize and

1056
00:48:54,430 --> 00:48:51,230
exclude strong paranormal experiences

1057
00:48:56,050 --> 00:48:54,440
they push them aside and they don't want

1058
00:48:59,560 --> 00:48:56,060
to deal with now there are some very

1059
00:49:01,630 --> 00:48:59,570
fundamental reasons for that it has to

1060
00:49:03,940 --> 00:49:01,640
do with the very nature of the structure

1061
00:49:05,560 --> 00:49:03,950
of society and the nature of the

1062
00:49:09,220 --> 00:49:05,570
paranormal is supernatural

1063
00:49:11,410 --> 00:49:09,230
this is not new you can go back 2,000

1064
00:49:14,170 --> 00:49:11,420
years ago and you will see the debates

1065
00:49:17,320 --> 00:49:14,180
about the reality or unreality of these

1066
00:49:22,450 --> 00:49:17,330
phenomena undertake honor ago being

1067
00:49:24,970 --> 00:49:22,460
debated back in the Middle Ages and the

1068
00:49:29,980 --> 00:49:24,980
Renaissance and Reformation these types

1069
00:49:33,340 --> 00:49:29,990
of issues were debated when Protestant

1070
00:49:35,800 --> 00:49:33,350
Christianity arose for instance there

1071
00:49:37,390 --> 00:49:35,810
was the doctrine as among some

1072
00:49:39,820 --> 00:49:37,400
Protestant denominations of the

1073
00:49:41,710 --> 00:49:39,830
cessation of the charisma talk meaning

1074
00:49:46,500 --> 00:49:41,720
that miracle stopped at the time of the

1075
00:49:52,510 --> 00:49:46,510
Apostles that's just one example many

1076
00:49:56,859 --> 00:49:52,520
mainstream churches discouraged use or

1077
00:49:59,890 --> 00:49:56,869
pursuit of paranormal abilities so this

1078
00:50:02,470 --> 00:49:59,900
is not something new this is something

1079
00:50:05,500 --> 00:50:02,480
very fundamental to our culture and

1080
00:50:07,059 --> 00:50:05,510
people in these fields rarely realize

1081
00:50:10,209 --> 00:50:07,069
that they rarely

1082
00:50:12,789 --> 00:50:10,219
read historical accounts but it's

1083
00:50:15,479 --> 00:50:12,799
fundamental to understanding these

1084
00:50:18,309 --> 00:50:15,489
phenomena and their place in our culture

1085
00:50:20,979 --> 00:50:18,319
and if you don't understand history and

1086
00:50:21,789 --> 00:50:20,989
don't read history looking for these

1087
00:50:23,650 --> 00:50:21,799
debates

1088
00:50:26,380 --> 00:50:23,660
you won't understand this this is not

1089
00:50:28,870 --> 00:50:26,390
new would you suggest then that people

1090
00:50:32,019 --> 00:50:28,880
in the UFO field who are just looking

1091
00:50:33,939 --> 00:50:32,029
for ET and disclosure are ignoring the

1092
00:50:38,019 --> 00:50:33,949
lessons of history not paying attention

1093
00:50:40,959 --> 00:50:38,029
to how we got from there to here and let

1094
00:50:43,660 --> 00:50:40,969
me that's right okay let me let me take

1095
00:50:45,880 --> 00:50:43,670
that up with you further in our next

1096
00:50:49,180 --> 00:50:45,890
segment with George hands and author of

1097
00:50:51,880 --> 00:50:49,190
the trickster and the paranormal so far

1098
00:50:54,130 --> 00:50:51,890
with our power cast plus service we have

1099
00:50:56,199 --> 00:50:54,140
the ad free version of the show with a

1100
00:50:58,539 --> 00:50:56,209
higher resolution copy so it sounds

1101
00:51:00,489 --> 00:50:58,549
clearer crisper and some of those

1102
00:51:02,469 --> 00:51:00,499
marginal connections might be easier to

1103
00:51:04,989 --> 00:51:02,479
understand when we have people with bad

1104
00:51:07,680 --> 00:51:04,999
phone service and then we also have the

1105
00:51:10,509 --> 00:51:07,690
after the para cast podcast and

1106
00:51:12,579 --> 00:51:10,519
exclusive for para cast plus members

1107
00:51:15,279 --> 00:51:12,589
we've got more to come and we also

1108
00:51:18,219 --> 00:51:15,289
invite your suggestions on how we can

1109
00:51:22,390 --> 00:51:18,229
deliver the package better go to plus

1110
00:51:25,420 --> 00:51:22,400
dot for para cast com PL us dot the para

1111
00:51:27,130 --> 00:51:25,430
cast comm to sign up and our favorite

1112
00:51:29,750 --> 00:51:27,140
trickster is Chris O'Brien I'm gene

1113
00:51:37,390 --> 00:51:29,760
Steinberg you're in libera cast

1114
00:51:42,150 --> 00:51:39,550
not just an alternative to the

1115
00:51:45,850 --> 00:51:42,160
mainstream media we're the premier

1116
00:51:49,680 --> 00:51:45,860
independent talk radio network we are G

1117
00:51:52,120 --> 00:51:49,690
C n Genesis is defined as an origin

1118
00:51:54,130 --> 00:51:52,130
creation for the beginning Genesis

1119
00:51:55,840 --> 00:51:54,140
communications network began with the

1120
00:51:57,580 --> 00:51:55,850
mission of providing you with a kind of

1121
00:51:59,980 --> 00:51:57,590
compelling content you're listening to

1122
00:52:01,660 --> 00:51:59,990
now and it G C and live.com you'll find

1123
00:52:04,930 --> 00:52:01,670
a free archive of our nation's history

1124
00:52:07,230 --> 00:52:04,940
narrated by G C and hosts explore chill

1125
00:52:09,880 --> 00:52:07,240
and passed down to future generations

1126
00:52:11,560 --> 00:52:09,890
GCN is the future of talk radio

1127
00:52:14,950 --> 00:52:11,570
we should always strive to learn from

1128
00:52:19,150 --> 00:52:14,960
our past together we are TC in live.com

1129
00:52:20,770 --> 00:52:19,160
g c n hi this is Ted Anderson have you

1130
00:52:22,420 --> 00:52:20,780
ever wondered why banks stockbrokers

1131
00:52:24,220 --> 00:52:22,430
investment advisors won't talk about

1132
00:52:26,710 --> 00:52:24,230
gold IRAs they've been available since

1133
00:52:28,480 --> 00:52:26,720
1986 yet the financial industry won't

1134
00:52:29,110 --> 00:52:28,490
recognize the value of gold for your

1135
00:52:31,060 --> 00:52:29,120
retirement

1136
00:52:33,160 --> 00:52:31,070
gold has outperformed paper investments

1137
00:52:35,280 --> 00:52:33,170
yet no word about IRAs if you would like

1138
00:52:38,590 --> 00:52:35,290
to have gold for your retirement call

1139
00:52:40,920 --> 00:52:38,600
866 to 237 don't get left behind by

1140
00:53:28,920 --> 00:52:40,930
rising inflation and low returns call

1141
00:53:34,210 --> 00:53:31,510
1-866-376-8255

1142
00:53:36,190 --> 00:53:34,220
alka vision plasma pH drops are packed

1143
00:53:37,070 --> 00:53:36,200
with a powerful combination of the most

1144
00:53:39,140 --> 00:53:37,080
alkaline

1145
00:53:41,510 --> 00:53:39,150
and compounds open the door to greater

1146
00:53:43,700 --> 00:53:41,520
health vitality and zest for life

1147
00:53:45,350 --> 00:53:43,710
alkalize your body supercharge your

1148
00:53:47,900 --> 00:53:45,360
health call eight hundred five hundred

1149
00:53:53,220 --> 00:53:47,910
thousand six one five or head to alcove

1150
00:53:58,980 --> 00:53:55,280
[Applause]

1151
00:54:03,290 --> 00:53:58,990
welcome back into the para cast the gold

1152
00:54:07,270 --> 00:54:03,300
standard of paranormal radio and now

1153
00:54:10,130 --> 00:54:07,280
here's Jane Steinberg

1154
00:54:12,750 --> 00:54:10,140
[Music]

1155
00:54:14,790 --> 00:54:12,760
with Gina and Chris in the para cast we

1156
00:54:16,440 --> 00:54:14,800
have George Hansen as we mention our

1157
00:54:18,870 --> 00:54:16,450
last segment George Hansen

1158
00:54:21,150 --> 00:54:18,880
I was bringing up the possibility here

1159
00:54:24,240 --> 00:54:21,160
that maybe there's a matter of tunnel

1160
00:54:26,370 --> 00:54:24,250
vision involved in UFO research that we

1161
00:54:29,430 --> 00:54:26,380
don't look at the entire picture we look

1162
00:54:30,150 --> 00:54:29,440
at our little segment of ET and

1163
00:54:33,000 --> 00:54:30,160
disclosure

1164
00:54:35,160 --> 00:54:33,010
oh absolutely there's tunnel vision but

1165
00:54:38,490 --> 00:54:35,170
that's the nature of science today

1166
00:54:40,380 --> 00:54:38,500
people are taught particular ways of

1167
00:54:42,630 --> 00:54:40,390
looking at things if you look at

1168
00:54:45,000 --> 00:54:42,640
universities there's departments of

1169
00:54:46,650 --> 00:54:45,010
psychology departments of the sociology

1170
00:54:49,830 --> 00:54:46,660
departments of history departments of

1171
00:54:52,500 --> 00:54:49,840
philosophy departments of physics all of

1172
00:54:54,900 --> 00:54:52,510
these have something to say about the

1173
00:54:57,510 --> 00:54:54,910
paranormal the supernatural however

1174
00:55:00,740 --> 00:54:57,520
people are not taught to look across

1175
00:55:03,870 --> 00:55:00,750
disciplines they are taught to become

1176
00:55:07,290 --> 00:55:03,880
specialized specialists in certain small

1177
00:55:10,950 --> 00:55:07,300
areas and by and large that works very

1178
00:55:15,690 --> 00:55:10,960
well for many fields it does not work

1179
00:55:17,850 --> 00:55:15,700
well for these phenomena so just the

1180
00:55:22,620 --> 00:55:17,860
very nature of these phenomena it tends

1181
00:55:24,570 --> 00:55:22,630
to blur boundaries were issues across

1182
00:55:26,400 --> 00:55:24,580
these various areas

1183
00:55:29,490 --> 00:55:26,410
now that's very hard for people to

1184
00:55:31,470 --> 00:55:29,500
understand to really be able to grapple

1185
00:55:34,290 --> 00:55:31,480
with these phenomena one has to have

1186
00:55:37,230 --> 00:55:34,300
familiarity with a number of fields to

1187
00:55:40,440 --> 00:55:37,240
take one example we've made very little

1188
00:55:42,560 --> 00:55:40,450
progress in this I'd point to Jacque

1189
00:55:47,240 --> 00:55:42,570
fillets book passport to mangonia

1190
00:55:50,100 --> 00:55:47,250
published in 1969 that's 45 years ago

1191
00:55:52,740 --> 00:55:50,110
now the way had some very important

1192
00:55:55,380 --> 00:55:52,750
insight and one of the things he talked

1193
00:55:58,140 --> 00:55:55,390
about was a social control system well

1194
00:56:00,660 --> 00:55:58,150
velay was writing at a time of very

1195
00:56:02,760 --> 00:56:00,670
fruitful time in the social sciences

1196
00:56:06,150 --> 00:56:02,770
there was a lot of very interesting work

1197
00:56:08,070 --> 00:56:06,160
done on myth and ritual boy could not

1198
00:56:09,630 --> 00:56:08,080
have been expected to be familiar with

1199
00:56:11,520 --> 00:56:09,640
that because it was being published the

1200
00:56:14,580 --> 00:56:11,530
same time he was publishing passports

1201
00:56:19,020 --> 00:56:14,590
Magana but a lot of that work on myth

1202
00:56:21,390 --> 00:56:19,030
and ritual was highly relevant to UFO

1203
00:56:24,330 --> 00:56:21,400
phenomena that almost no

1204
00:56:27,930 --> 00:56:24,340
you always upon that boy I opened up a

1205
00:56:29,880 --> 00:56:27,940
new area with along with John keel but

1206
00:56:32,220 --> 00:56:29,890
no one really has taken that very much

1207
00:56:35,840 --> 00:56:32,230
further but there's a lot of very

1208
00:56:39,030 --> 00:56:35,850
interesting work done on myth and ritual

1209
00:56:41,640 --> 00:56:39,040
I'd say it this way for thousands of

1210
00:56:45,300 --> 00:56:41,650
years people have used rituals to

1211
00:56:47,580 --> 00:56:45,310
control channel and hedge off paranormal

1212
00:56:50,610 --> 00:56:47,590
or supernatural forces and they have

1213
00:56:52,800 --> 00:56:50,620
used myths to describe explain and

1214
00:56:55,170 --> 00:56:52,810
understand those forces but there's a

1215
00:56:57,390 --> 00:56:55,180
real aversion in science to studying

1216
00:57:00,330 --> 00:56:57,400
myth or ritual to take it seriously myth

1217
00:57:02,090 --> 00:57:00,340
is looked upon as fantasy ritual is

1218
00:57:06,180 --> 00:57:02,100
looked upon as superstitious behavior

1219
00:57:08,910 --> 00:57:06,190
but this is where we should be looking

1220
00:57:11,370 --> 00:57:08,920
and very few people are willing to do

1221
00:57:13,770 --> 00:57:11,380
that they want to talk about physics and

1222
00:57:15,870 --> 00:57:13,780
enter dimensions wormholes and the like

1223
00:57:18,060 --> 00:57:15,880
people have been dealing with these

1224
00:57:19,790 --> 00:57:18,070
phenomena for thousands of years and the

1225
00:57:22,740 --> 00:57:19,800
way they've been dealing with them and

1226
00:57:23,190 --> 00:57:22,750
understanding them is via ritual and

1227
00:57:25,110 --> 00:57:23,200
myth

1228
00:57:27,180 --> 00:57:25,120
people don't talk about that much today

1229
00:57:29,550 --> 00:57:27,190
well much much of science and how its

1230
00:57:33,120 --> 00:57:29,560
conducted could be actually considered

1231
00:57:34,500 --> 00:57:33,130
as ritualistic in many ways and of

1232
00:57:37,110 --> 00:57:34,510
course scientists will be the last ones

1233
00:57:40,070 --> 00:57:37,120
to to agree with that statement but

1234
00:57:43,590 --> 00:57:40,080
there is a fair amount of ritual in and

1235
00:57:45,270 --> 00:57:43,600
programmed singular behavior involved in

1236
00:57:47,190 --> 00:57:45,280
the scientific disciplines especially

1237
00:57:49,970 --> 00:57:47,200
when you get into fieldwork and in lab

1238
00:57:52,230 --> 00:57:49,980
work of there are certain protocols

1239
00:57:54,090 --> 00:57:52,240
everything in life is a ritual tying

1240
00:57:55,740 --> 00:57:54,100
your shoes in the morning the way you

1241
00:57:59,820 --> 00:57:55,750
tie your shoes could be considered a

1242
00:58:02,970 --> 00:57:59,830
ritual so it's very important but often

1243
00:58:05,580 --> 00:58:02,980
then most mostly overlooked aspect of

1244
00:58:08,760 --> 00:58:05,590
this type of work that's right and

1245
00:58:10,410 --> 00:58:08,770
people do not analyze it from the

1246
00:58:14,360 --> 00:58:10,420
standpoint of ritual and its

1247
00:58:17,070 --> 00:58:14,370
implications so yes scientists do use

1248
00:58:18,870 --> 00:58:17,080
ritualistic type processes but they

1249
00:58:21,150 --> 00:58:18,880
don't analyze it from that standpoint

1250
00:58:23,820 --> 00:58:21,160
they don't think about what this does to

1251
00:58:27,600 --> 00:58:23,830
consciousness what it does to awareness

1252
00:58:30,600 --> 00:58:27,610
and focus well the point yeah and it

1253
00:58:33,540 --> 00:58:30,610
also actually can impinge upon the

1254
00:58:34,860 --> 00:58:33,550
results of course Heisenberg and the

1255
00:58:37,020 --> 00:58:34,870
in principle on the Copenhagen

1256
00:58:39,240 --> 00:58:37,030
interpretation states at any time you

1257
00:58:42,710 --> 00:58:39,250
observe something you are subtly in

1258
00:58:46,290 --> 00:58:42,720
sometimes grossly affecting the actual

1259
00:58:48,660 --> 00:58:46,300
experience that you studied and in but

1260
00:58:52,320 --> 00:58:48,670
that can be easily dismissed is only

1261
00:58:56,130 --> 00:58:52,330
applicable to subatomic processes here

1262
00:58:58,650 --> 00:58:56,140
we're dealing with ego over large scale

1263
00:59:01,590 --> 00:58:58,660
phenomena comparatively so it's very

1264
00:59:04,140 --> 00:59:01,600
easy to dismiss the quantum mechanical

1265
00:59:06,660 --> 00:59:04,150
Heisenberg types of ideas as basically

1266
00:59:08,490 --> 00:59:06,670
irrelevant and in most cases they are

1267
00:59:11,610 --> 00:59:08,500
irrelevant although from a philosophical

1268
00:59:13,980 --> 00:59:11,620
perspective it's useful but from a

1269
00:59:16,260 --> 00:59:13,990
scientific perspective no those types of

1270
00:59:18,180 --> 00:59:16,270
ideas are not brought in to the two most

1271
00:59:21,570 --> 00:59:18,190
paranormal phenomena except when you

1272
00:59:24,360 --> 00:59:21,580
start looking at say micro pique that's

1273
00:59:27,930 --> 00:59:24,370
influencing very small movements

1274
00:59:30,240 --> 00:59:27,940
electrons or balls of dice so it's very

1275
00:59:32,820 --> 00:59:30,250
hard to scale that up it may be able to

1276
00:59:35,730 --> 00:59:32,830
be done but I can see why people avoid

1277
00:59:37,010 --> 00:59:35,740
that there are ways looking at ritual in

1278
00:59:39,780 --> 00:59:37,020
medicine from an anthropological

1279
00:59:42,930 --> 00:59:39,790
perspective that give us this much more

1280
00:59:45,660 --> 00:59:42,940
insights than the physics what I find

1281
00:59:48,210 --> 00:59:45,670
very interesting about your book took

1282
00:59:51,930 --> 00:59:48,220
stir in the paranormal is it was you

1283
00:59:54,240 --> 00:59:51,940
observing some of the infighting and the

1284
00:59:56,940 --> 00:59:54,250
way science was conducted and just the

1285
00:59:59,030 --> 00:59:56,950
way the whole parasite was the

1286
01:00:02,400 --> 00:59:59,040
psychology fields or was unfolding

1287
01:00:04,560 --> 01:00:02,410
around you that's what I think first

1288
01:00:06,600 --> 01:00:04,570
really clued you in that there was some

1289
01:00:08,640 --> 01:00:06,610
sort of tricks Jewish element that was

1290
01:00:13,230 --> 01:00:08,650
involved when why don't you kind of

1291
01:00:17,090 --> 01:00:13,240
dovetail that was part of it a small

1292
01:00:19,350 --> 01:00:17,100
part the primary impetus was the

1293
01:00:21,840 --> 01:00:19,360
realization of all the frauds and hope

1294
01:00:23,550 --> 01:00:21,850
Singh going back well over a hundred

1295
01:00:25,380 --> 01:00:23,560
years within parapsychology and

1296
01:00:27,840 --> 01:00:25,390
psychical research especially the

1297
01:00:29,940 --> 01:00:27,850
hosting of medium mediums then when I

1298
01:00:32,160 --> 01:00:29,950
started getting involved in the whole

1299
01:00:34,560 --> 01:00:32,170
phenom the hope sing and deception

1300
01:00:35,820 --> 01:00:34,570
became even more obvious a lot

1301
01:00:38,160 --> 01:00:35,830
especially with the government

1302
01:00:41,910 --> 01:00:38,170
disinformation I remember talking with

1303
01:00:43,890 --> 01:00:41,920
John keel one time and suggesting well

1304
01:00:47,070 --> 01:00:43,900
what we really need to do is have a

1305
01:00:51,360 --> 01:00:47,080
history of hoaxes and ufology guarantee

1306
01:00:53,160 --> 01:00:51,370
in his usual manner curmudgeonly manner

1307
01:00:55,110 --> 01:00:53,170
would say well that's all it is

1308
01:00:58,050 --> 01:00:55,120
yeah that's the entire history of

1309
01:01:00,450 --> 01:00:58,060
Mythology which was a little bit of an

1310
01:01:04,350 --> 01:01:00,460
overstatement but not too far

1311
01:01:06,750 --> 01:01:04,360
so this pervasiveness of hoaxing and i

1312
01:01:09,570 --> 01:01:06,760
also at that time was involved in still

1313
01:01:11,220 --> 01:01:09,580
him with magic and performance magic a

1314
01:01:13,370 --> 01:01:11,230
member of International Brotherhood of

1315
01:01:18,090 --> 01:01:13,380
magicians and followed the ways people

1316
01:01:21,510 --> 01:01:18,100
would pull off hoaxes and frauds so this

1317
01:01:23,460 --> 01:01:21,520
was a very pervasive accompaniment to

1318
01:01:25,800 --> 01:01:23,470
psychic phenomena that I was aware of

1319
01:01:28,290 --> 01:01:25,810
and by and large most people in

1320
01:01:29,790 --> 01:01:28,300
parapsychology really really did not

1321
01:01:31,950 --> 01:01:29,800
want to hear this

1322
01:01:34,650 --> 01:01:31,960
I presented several papers at

1323
01:01:37,710 --> 01:01:34,660
conventions and I was not particularly

1324
01:01:39,300 --> 01:01:37,720
well received most researchers did not

1325
01:01:41,160 --> 01:01:39,310
want to learn anything at all about

1326
01:01:44,730 --> 01:01:41,170
magic tricks there was really

1327
01:01:47,550 --> 01:01:44,740
significant antagonism to my message so

1328
01:01:49,830 --> 01:01:47,560
that was number one it and if you just

1329
01:01:51,750 --> 01:01:49,840
step back and look at the the paranormal

1330
01:01:53,430 --> 01:01:51,760
fields you just see hoaxes and

1331
01:01:56,460 --> 01:01:53,440
deceptions just all over the place

1332
01:01:59,490 --> 01:01:56,470
any comprehensive theory needs to

1333
01:02:02,100 --> 01:01:59,500
explain that association between hoaxes

1334
01:02:05,760 --> 01:02:02,110
and deception and paranormal phenomena

1335
01:02:08,550 --> 01:02:05,770
that was number one number two was these

1336
01:02:11,730 --> 01:02:08,560
groups whether the spiritualist groups

1337
01:02:15,650 --> 01:02:11,740
or parapsychology laboratories or UFO

1338
01:02:18,270 --> 01:02:15,660
research groups never really got to be

1339
01:02:21,000 --> 01:02:18,280
effectively institutionalized

1340
01:02:23,760 --> 01:02:21,010
that is they were not they did not

1341
01:02:26,100 --> 01:02:23,770
become integrated into educational

1342
01:02:28,800 --> 01:02:26,110
institutions for instance you would have

1343
01:02:30,750 --> 01:02:28,810
a few professors doing or searched here

1344
01:02:32,460 --> 01:02:30,760
and there sometimes there may be two or

1345
01:02:34,830 --> 01:02:32,470
three professors at a university or

1346
01:02:38,520 --> 01:02:34,840
doing it and then it would fall apart

1347
01:02:40,860 --> 01:02:38,530
after 5 10 15 years it just didn't last

1348
01:02:43,560 --> 01:02:40,870
there are no departments of

1349
01:02:45,780 --> 01:02:43,570
parapsychology in any accredited

1350
01:02:48,270 --> 01:02:45,790
university in this country there are no

1351
01:02:50,490 --> 01:02:48,280
departments of UFO research in any

1352
01:02:54,090 --> 01:02:50,500
accredited university in this country

1353
01:02:56,700 --> 01:02:54,100
and these phenomena are enormous ly

1354
01:02:59,670 --> 01:02:56,710
popular there is enormous interest in

1355
01:03:00,840 --> 01:02:59,680
these why is it these phenomena are not

1356
01:03:03,980 --> 01:03:00,850
it can set

1357
01:03:07,230 --> 01:03:03,990
in institutions if you looked at major

1358
01:03:09,620 --> 01:03:07,240
corporations they virtually never admit

1359
01:03:12,210 --> 01:03:09,630
to using psychics or have an interest to

1360
01:03:14,580 --> 01:03:12,220
contrary examples would be the

1361
01:03:17,700 --> 01:03:14,590
entertainment industry that devotes

1362
01:03:20,520 --> 01:03:17,710
enormous resources to paranormal stories

1363
01:03:22,680 --> 01:03:20,530
but those are fiction another industry

1364
01:03:25,590 --> 01:03:22,690
would be the telephone psychic hotline

1365
01:03:27,330 --> 01:03:25,600
okay so we have a psychic outlines we

1366
01:03:30,180 --> 01:03:27,340
have the entertainment industry and

1367
01:03:33,390 --> 01:03:30,190
we've got a lot more to talk about with

1368
01:03:35,030 --> 01:03:33,400
George Hansen author of the trickster in

1369
01:03:36,930 --> 01:03:35,040
the paranormal we got to meet some

1370
01:03:39,300 --> 01:03:36,940
paranormal tricksters and we'll be in

1371
01:03:47,850 --> 01:03:39,310
trouble here's one of them with Gene and

1372
01:03:49,290 --> 01:03:47,860
Kris you're in first game attack of the

1373
01:03:51,360 --> 01:03:49,300
rock codes and it was a critically

1374
01:03:53,340 --> 01:03:51,370
acclaimed success and now there is the

1375
01:03:55,500 --> 01:03:53,350
coming of the protectors a former

1376
01:03:57,720 --> 01:03:55,510
military intelligence man is contacted

1377
01:04:00,300 --> 01:03:57,730
by a space woman in a dream a dream that

1378
01:04:01,890 --> 01:04:00,310
turns out to be a nightmare because evil

1379
01:04:03,450 --> 01:04:01,900
forces on our distant planet are

1380
01:04:05,790 --> 01:04:03,460
planning to conquer the earth

1381
01:04:08,250 --> 01:04:05,800
this is gripping science fiction of the

1382
01:04:10,320 --> 01:04:08,260
classic kind attack of the rock codes

1383
01:04:13,080 --> 01:04:10,330
and the coming of the protectors find

1384
01:04:17,310 --> 01:04:13,090
out more at Rocko is calm that's rock oh

1385
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it's our Ock oids calm do you need a

1386
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website well you can get a great deal on

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1397
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myk's Tennyson fremitus resources and no

1398
01:04:53,610 --> 01:04:51,700
time in history have precious metals

1399
01:04:56,100 --> 01:04:53,620
been more important certainly not in my

1400
01:04:58,500 --> 01:04:56,110
22 years in the industry the dollar has

1401
01:04:59,460 --> 01:04:58,510
lost over 90% of its value in the last

1402
01:05:01,770 --> 01:04:59,470
60 years

1403
01:05:03,900 --> 01:05:01,780
no fiat currency has ever survived the

1404
01:05:07,220 --> 01:05:03,910
government printing presses ours is not

1405
01:05:11,220 --> 01:05:07,230
immune the time is now to be proactive

1406
01:05:14,250 --> 01:05:11,230
1-866 to 237 extension one one six

1407
01:05:18,060 --> 01:05:14,260
anything tied to the dollar is at risk

1408
01:05:20,580 --> 01:05:18,070
CDs annuities 401 k's IRA stocks bonds

1409
01:05:22,530 --> 01:05:20,590
you name it so decide do you want to

1410
01:05:24,990 --> 01:05:22,540
leave a legacy of wealth or debt for

1411
01:05:27,000 --> 01:05:25,000
your family the choice is yours call me

1412
01:05:30,450 --> 01:05:27,010
at one eight hundred six eight six to

1413
01:05:32,640 --> 01:05:30,460
237 extension one one six that's one

1414
01:05:35,490 --> 01:05:32,650
eight hundred six eight six two two

1415
01:05:39,850 --> 01:05:35,500
three seven extension one one six be

1416
01:05:39,860 --> 01:06:12,110
[Music]

1417
01:06:18,050 --> 01:06:15,710
wrong show Minnesota millions of loyal

1418
01:06:19,700 --> 01:06:18,060
listeners worldwide waiting to call and

1419
01:06:22,040 --> 01:06:19,710
talk to you caller are you there

1420
01:06:23,620 --> 01:06:22,050
cheering crowd surrounds you calling out

1421
01:06:31,890 --> 01:06:23,630
your name

1422
01:06:37,209 --> 01:06:34,089
with the host you're listening to right

1423
01:06:38,229 --> 01:06:37,219
now online at GCN live.com click on the

1424
01:06:39,759 --> 01:06:38,239
community link

1425
01:06:42,009 --> 01:06:39,769
engage with other listeners ask

1426
01:06:44,410 --> 01:06:42,019
questions start debates don't agree with

1427
01:06:49,209 --> 01:06:44,420
the host let them know be a part of the

1428
01:06:51,160 --> 01:06:49,219
community at GCN live.com for over 5

1429
01:06:53,559 --> 01:06:51,170
years you've been hearing about the

1430
01:06:56,109 --> 01:06:53,569
Berkey guy so you may know a few things

1431
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about him for example you are well aware

1432
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of the superior quality and

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effectiveness of berkey water filters

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and accessories but did you know the

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Burr Keys have had independent lab tests

1436
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done to prove just how effective they

1437
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are it's true and he can email you the

1438
01:07:12,999 --> 01:07:10,880
test results just visit go Berkey

1439
01:07:15,130 --> 01:07:13,009
dot-com you may also know that the

1440
01:07:17,229 --> 01:07:15,140
Berkey guy has helped tens of thousands

1441
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of people get better prepared now here's

1442
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something you may not know go Berkey

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comm has amazing specials and deals all

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the time on a wide variety of survival

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and preparedness products most ready to

1446
01:07:31,870 --> 01:07:29,599
ship same day visit the Berkey guy at

1447
01:07:34,839 --> 01:07:31,880
Gober keep calm and be sure to click the

1448
01:07:37,120 --> 01:07:34,849
red products on sale now button you can

1449
01:07:39,069 --> 01:07:37,130
always call toll free eight seven seven

1450
01:07:41,529 --> 01:07:39,079
eight eight six three six five three

1451
01:07:44,680 --> 01:07:41,539
again that's eight seven seven eight

1452
01:07:50,769 --> 01:07:44,690
eight six three six five three goldberg

1453
01:07:53,019 --> 01:07:50,779
e.com home of a perky guy we'd like to

1454
01:07:55,479 --> 01:07:53,029
hear from you if you have a comment or

1455
01:07:56,920 --> 01:07:55,489
question about the para cast sent it to

1456
01:08:00,130 --> 01:07:56,930
News at the

1457
01:08:02,980 --> 01:08:00,140
Erica's calm that's news at the para

1458
01:08:05,799 --> 01:08:02,990
cast table and don't forget to visit our

1459
01:08:10,299 --> 01:08:05,809
famous para cast community forums at

1460
01:08:12,040 --> 01:08:10,309
forum without the para cast when Chris

1461
01:08:15,880 --> 01:08:12,050
does that voice I think he's going to be

1462
01:08:17,709 --> 01:08:15,890
the parrot cast George Hansen's so we're

1463
01:08:20,410 --> 01:08:17,719
talking about entertainment we're

1464
01:08:24,760 --> 01:08:20,420
talking about one 900 psychic where else

1465
01:08:28,260 --> 01:08:24,770
George Hansen yes so probably the two

1466
01:08:31,090 --> 01:08:28,270
major industries that are devoted to

1467
01:08:34,079 --> 01:08:31,100
paranormal that are really obvious to

1468
01:08:37,959 --> 01:08:34,089
many people and when I'm talking about

1469
01:08:40,570 --> 01:08:37,969
industries I mean collections of

1470
01:08:43,479 --> 01:08:40,580
businesses that have buildings paid

1471
01:08:45,610 --> 01:08:43,489
staff real financial resources behind

1472
01:08:48,610 --> 01:08:45,620
them the entertainment industry

1473
01:08:52,959 --> 01:08:48,620
you look at Hollywood look at the

1474
01:08:56,370 --> 01:08:52,969
blockbuster movies are often have

1475
01:09:00,729 --> 01:08:56,380
paranormal themes ghosts Ghostbusters

1476
01:09:03,990 --> 01:09:00,739
Independence Day even and and even Harry

1477
01:09:06,430 --> 01:09:04,000
Potter you've got lots of myth and

1478
01:09:07,599 --> 01:09:06,440
paranormal supernatural types of

1479
01:09:09,490 --> 01:09:07,609
experiences occurring

1480
01:09:13,090 --> 01:09:09,500
let me just ask you here before we go on

1481
01:09:17,640 --> 01:09:13,100
Independence Day famous popcorn thriller

1482
01:09:21,099 --> 01:09:17,650
from what 1996 is gonna be a sequel in

1483
01:09:23,519 --> 01:09:21,109
2016 20th anniversary how Pablo just

1484
01:09:25,689 --> 01:09:23,529
seemed to be aliens attacking earth

1485
01:09:27,760 --> 01:09:25,699
committing all sorts of destruction

1486
01:09:31,590 --> 01:09:27,770
killing tens of millions of people and

1487
01:09:36,150 --> 01:09:31,600
then we win so where is the paranormal

1488
01:09:39,309 --> 01:09:36,160
you've got aliens aliens are are

1489
01:09:42,579 --> 01:09:39,319
apparently the UFO phenomena is a

1490
01:09:44,519 --> 01:09:42,589
paranormal phenomena whether some of the

1491
01:09:47,919 --> 01:09:44,529
you file just want to admit that or not

1492
01:09:49,380 --> 01:09:47,929
aliens have special powers they can

1493
01:09:52,950 --> 01:09:49,390
travel great distances

1494
01:09:55,840 --> 01:09:52,960
these are paranormal accounts or

1495
01:09:58,930 --> 01:09:55,850
fictional portrayals of them a lot of

1496
01:10:02,860 --> 01:09:58,940
people have alien types of experiences

1497
01:10:04,689 --> 01:10:02,870
these are graphic portrayals of some

1498
01:10:07,360 --> 01:10:04,699
types of people's experiences people

1499
01:10:09,580 --> 01:10:07,370
being abducted for instance highly

1500
01:10:10,870 --> 01:10:09,590
fictionalized no question about it but

1501
01:10:14,439 --> 01:10:10,880
it's not like

1502
01:10:16,180 --> 01:10:14,449
a show about police officers chasing

1503
01:10:19,120 --> 01:10:16,190
criminals or chasing the Mafia or

1504
01:10:21,850 --> 01:10:19,130
doctors overcoming certain diseases this

1505
01:10:24,149 --> 01:10:21,860
is dealing with a paranormal theme yes

1506
01:10:27,220 --> 01:10:24,159
but is it paranormal or is it just

1507
01:10:30,520 --> 01:10:27,230
reflecting what another race on another

1508
01:10:35,080 --> 01:10:30,530
planetary system who has the predatory

1509
01:10:36,640 --> 01:10:35,090
aspects of the creatures in Independence

1510
01:10:39,280 --> 01:10:36,650
Day coming here and doing their stuff

1511
01:10:40,959 --> 01:10:39,290
how's that paranormal maybe there are

1512
01:10:43,229 --> 01:10:40,969
hundreds or thousands of years ahead of

1513
01:10:45,939 --> 01:10:43,239
us in terms of scientific advancement

1514
01:10:48,090 --> 01:10:45,949
yes we were not being able to explain

1515
01:10:50,680 --> 01:10:48,100
their phenomena like the materialization

1516
01:10:54,030 --> 01:10:50,690
dematerialization invisibility and the

1517
01:10:58,959 --> 01:10:54,040
light that counts as paranormal now

1518
01:11:01,330 --> 01:10:58,969
again this perspective is not your

1519
01:11:02,770 --> 01:11:01,340
perspective your argument here is more

1520
01:11:05,350 --> 01:11:02,780
like the old white guys in

1521
01:11:08,470 --> 01:11:05,360
parapsychology and ufology now the

1522
01:11:10,180 --> 01:11:08,480
younger people who are looking at this

1523
01:11:12,280 --> 01:11:10,190
from a cultural perspective and I

1524
01:11:14,640 --> 01:11:12,290
particularly note Jeffrey Cripe old

1525
01:11:17,890 --> 01:11:14,650
professor of religion at Rice University

1526
01:11:20,379 --> 01:11:17,900
has a couple of very interesting books

1527
01:11:22,479 --> 01:11:20,389
out particularly his book mutants and

1528
01:11:26,459 --> 01:11:22,489
mystics that's all about comic books

1529
01:11:29,770 --> 01:11:26,469
well Crapo happens to be one of the most

1530
01:11:31,000 --> 01:11:29,780
promising commentators on the paranormal

1531
01:11:34,330 --> 01:11:31,010
these days and with very high

1532
01:11:37,540 --> 01:11:34,340
credibility in a khadeem he is very well

1533
01:11:41,700 --> 01:11:37,550
known within religious studies and so he

1534
01:11:45,610 --> 01:11:41,710
is looking at what comic books movies

1535
01:11:47,350 --> 01:11:45,620
novels and like tell us about our human

1536
01:11:50,530 --> 01:11:47,360
condition and the supernatural on

1537
01:11:52,930 --> 01:11:50,540
paranormal this is part of the field of

1538
01:11:56,110 --> 01:11:52,940
ufology whether the old white guys want

1539
01:11:59,320 --> 01:11:56,120
to admit it or not this is a new way of

1540
01:12:02,189 --> 01:11:59,330
understanding these phenomena it is not

1541
01:12:05,879 --> 01:12:02,199
a nuts-and-bolts flesh-and-blood type of

1542
01:12:09,010 --> 01:12:05,889
craft and aliens this is a cultural

1543
01:12:11,439 --> 01:12:09,020
sociological philosophical way of

1544
01:12:13,840 --> 01:12:11,449
understanding these phenomena that's

1545
01:12:19,030 --> 01:12:13,850
where the field is going in the academic

1546
01:12:22,419 --> 01:12:19,040
sense the old looking for ETS out in the

1547
01:12:24,759 --> 01:12:22,429
sky oak and in from other plants from a

1548
01:12:27,850 --> 01:12:24,769
physics standpoint okay that might be

1549
01:12:29,799 --> 01:12:27,860
but the real work being done is much

1550
01:12:32,739 --> 01:12:29,809
more like what Jacques boy is talking

1551
01:12:35,649 --> 01:12:32,749
about how do these images how do these

1552
01:12:38,350 --> 01:12:35,659
movies how do these stories shape our

1553
01:12:41,290 --> 01:12:38,360
culture this is the culture control

1554
01:12:45,129 --> 01:12:41,300
system boy was talking about 45 years

1555
01:12:47,979 --> 01:12:45,139
ago so then is our entire picture of

1556
01:12:50,770 --> 01:12:47,989
what UFOs are today which is et mostly

1557
01:12:54,629 --> 01:12:50,780
is that all just a cultural phenomenon

1558
01:12:58,020 --> 01:12:54,639
based on a source that the people who

1559
01:13:01,299 --> 01:12:58,030
propound that theory do not understand

1560
01:13:02,589 --> 01:13:01,309
the people who are pushing that theory

1561
01:13:04,720 --> 01:13:02,599
don't understand what they're dealing

1562
01:13:07,180 --> 01:13:04,730
with they don't step back and look at

1563
01:13:10,330 --> 01:13:07,190
the larger picture these phenomena have

1564
01:13:13,899 --> 01:13:10,340
been reported for thousands of years the

1565
01:13:16,689 --> 01:13:13,909
UFO phenomena overlaps a lot with

1566
01:13:20,859 --> 01:13:16,699
psychic phenomena the UFO phenomena

1567
01:13:24,160 --> 01:13:20,869
overlaps with Bigfoot those those facts

1568
01:13:26,379 --> 01:13:24,170
need to be explained and a Bigfoot

1569
01:13:28,899 --> 01:13:26,389
connection with psychics that with UFO

1570
01:13:31,299 --> 01:13:28,909
phenomena is not accounted for by the

1571
01:13:33,910 --> 01:13:31,309
paradigms of the old white guys and move

1572
01:13:36,640 --> 01:13:33,920
on and cue folks know they don't want to

1573
01:13:39,060 --> 01:13:36,650
talk about that but it's fundamental to

1574
01:13:42,310 --> 01:13:39,070
understanding it and there are ways

1575
01:13:44,259 --> 01:13:42,320
analysis of myth to address this and

1576
01:13:46,660 --> 01:13:44,269
that has to do with structural

1577
01:13:49,950 --> 01:13:46,670
anthropology addresses it very very

1578
01:13:52,330 --> 01:13:49,960
nicely people don't study anthropology

1579
01:13:54,640 --> 01:13:52,340
there are very few who've studied

1580
01:13:57,910 --> 01:13:54,650
anthropology and analysis and myth and

1581
01:13:59,549 --> 01:13:57,920
ritual in the UFO field civil they

1582
01:14:04,060 --> 01:13:59,559
brought this to the attention of people

1583
01:14:06,459 --> 01:14:04,070
45 years ago people are not paying

1584
01:14:09,310 --> 01:14:06,469
attention what I'm hearing from you

1585
01:14:11,919 --> 01:14:09,320
George's is that there is an underlying

1586
01:14:13,450 --> 01:14:11,929
sort of inner relationship between these

1587
01:14:15,879 --> 01:14:13,460
various what appeared to be on the

1588
01:14:18,549 --> 01:14:15,889
surface of mutually exclusive and

1589
01:14:21,430 --> 01:14:18,559
divergent phenomena so what you're

1590
01:14:23,200 --> 01:14:21,440
suggesting is that there is on some

1591
01:14:25,660 --> 01:14:23,210
level there is some interconnectedness

1592
01:14:28,540 --> 01:14:25,670
in a scientific way but but definitely

1593
01:14:30,640 --> 01:14:28,550
in a cultural way in my book stalking

1594
01:14:32,529 --> 01:14:30,650
the trickster I went it I took it one

1595
01:14:34,990 --> 01:14:32,539
step further and said that the

1596
01:14:36,640 --> 01:14:35,000
there's there's actually a mechanism and

1597
01:14:40,600 --> 01:14:36,650
it appears to be connecting these things

1598
01:14:42,640 --> 01:14:40,610
I don't know if mechanism is quite the

1599
01:14:46,660 --> 01:14:42,650
right word but maybe that's the best we

1600
01:14:50,259 --> 01:14:46,670
can do there is a way of analysing these

1601
01:14:52,930 --> 01:14:50,269
phenomena and that involves a structural

1602
01:14:55,419 --> 01:14:52,940
analysis and a structural analysis is

1603
01:14:57,850 --> 01:14:55,429
typically not something that people are

1604
01:15:01,479 --> 01:14:57,860
familiar with but it has a long history

1605
01:15:04,479 --> 01:15:01,489
in anthropology and there are structural

1606
01:15:06,790 --> 01:15:04,489
details of these phenomena and these

1607
01:15:11,229 --> 01:15:06,800
experiences that are very very similar

1608
01:15:14,290 --> 01:15:11,239
and that overlap and that has to do with

1609
01:15:17,410 --> 01:15:14,300
the idea of liminality and the idea of

1610
01:15:20,620 --> 01:15:17,420
liminality was derived from analysis of

1611
01:15:23,500 --> 01:15:20,630
ritual back about over a hundred years

1612
01:15:26,939 --> 01:15:23,510
ago anthropologist understood something

1613
01:15:29,950 --> 01:15:26,949
about ritual and this in-between area

1614
01:15:30,160 --> 01:15:29,960
which is between the heavens and the

1615
01:15:34,600 --> 01:15:30,170
earth

1616
01:15:35,290 --> 01:15:34,610
we have angels and ufos between life and

1617
01:15:38,680 --> 01:15:35,300
death

1618
01:15:40,540 --> 01:15:38,690
we have mediums we have ghosts

1619
01:15:42,810 --> 01:15:40,550
we have near-death experiences we have

1620
01:15:45,700 --> 01:15:42,820
claims of reincarnation those

1621
01:15:47,890 --> 01:15:45,710
experiences and phenomena blur that

1622
01:15:50,350 --> 01:15:47,900
distinction between life and death

1623
01:15:53,680 --> 01:15:50,360
most people think life and death are

1624
01:15:56,229 --> 01:15:53,690
very separate and our culture make

1625
01:15:58,540 --> 01:15:56,239
boundaries between life and death it

1626
01:16:00,879 --> 01:15:58,550
sounds to me I want to simplify this for

1627
01:16:03,669 --> 01:16:00,889
listeners whose eyes might be glazing

1628
01:16:06,879 --> 01:16:03,679
over now it sounds to me here is that

1629
01:16:09,850 --> 01:16:06,889
we're taking it very simple I won't say

1630
01:16:12,879 --> 01:16:09,860
simple-minded a very simple approach to

1631
01:16:15,160 --> 01:16:12,889
what all this means and we really need

1632
01:16:17,680 --> 01:16:15,170
to define this Gorge as we progress and

1633
01:16:20,890 --> 01:16:17,690
I'm going to also ask more about who and

1634
01:16:24,250 --> 01:16:20,900
what is the trickster is it a singular

1635
01:16:25,930 --> 01:16:24,260
or plural entity what is it more to come

1636
01:16:28,310 --> 01:16:25,940
George Hansen's our guests with Gene and

1637
01:16:36,410 --> 01:16:28,320
Kris you're in the para cast

1638
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free from the shackles of Corporate

1639
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America we're the place for independent

1640
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thinkers graphic converter is the image

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does not use any database you get full

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graphic converter and a powerful browser

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opens up to show your image files you

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could use it for slideshows you could

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use it to import images from digital

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cameras or from scanners need to do some

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image editing you can do that too in

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graphic converter also print catalogs

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converter go to Lemke soft comm mats le

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Lemke soft comm le Mk II soft calm this

1663
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alert just came in this special

1664
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announcement is for business owners and

1665
01:17:58,160 --> 01:17:55,960
leaders of organizations who've been

1666
01:18:00,720 --> 01:17:58,170
waiting for the right time to build

1667
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general steel has made it impossible to

1668
01:18:04,799 --> 01:18:02,619
wait any longer with rock-bottom prices

1669
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that could save you thousands that's

1670
01:18:09,270 --> 01:18:07,119
right general steel America's leader in

1671
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pre engineered structures is offering

1672
01:18:13,620 --> 01:18:11,170
buildings at prices you will never see

1673
01:18:16,709 --> 01:18:13,630
again don't miss these prices of 50 by

1674
01:18:19,169 --> 01:18:16,719
100 for $35,000 you heard right that's

1675
01:18:20,939 --> 01:18:19,179
5000 square feet for $35,000

1676
01:18:23,189 --> 01:18:20,949
manufacturers if you need a larger

1677
01:18:24,510 --> 01:18:23,199
building try a 100 by 100 commercial

1678
01:18:26,459 --> 01:18:24,520
building for a hundred and twenty nine

1679
01:18:28,830 --> 01:18:26,469
thousand you can't afford to rent with

1680
01:18:30,390 --> 01:18:28,840
these prices imagine a 70 by 100 foot

1681
01:18:32,220 --> 01:18:30,400
church building for under sixty nine

1682
01:18:34,140 --> 01:18:32,230
thousand dollars with the economy

1683
01:18:36,299 --> 01:18:34,150
improving and interest rates still at

1684
01:18:40,560 --> 01:18:36,309
historic lows you can't afford to wait

1685
01:18:44,700 --> 01:18:40,570
so call 866 91 steel lock in your price

1686
01:18:46,950 --> 01:18:44,710
now call 866 91 steel that's eight six

1687
01:18:49,240 --> 01:18:46,960
six nine one seven eighty three

1688
01:18:50,950 --> 01:18:49,250
thirty-five you have all seen in

1689
01:18:53,260 --> 01:18:50,960
heard about the elements of the periodic

1690
01:18:55,870 --> 01:18:53,270
table these elements are the building

1691
01:18:57,820 --> 01:18:55,880
blocks of everything in the universe you

1692
01:18:59,860 --> 01:18:57,830
my friends are made from these elements

1693
01:19:02,080 --> 01:18:59,870
a shortage of any of these important

1694
01:19:04,150 --> 01:19:02,090
trace elements can lead to disease go

1695
01:19:06,070 --> 01:19:04,160
with the science and take the lady talk

1696
01:19:07,900 --> 01:19:06,080
health challenge and get all 90

1697
01:19:11,110 --> 01:19:07,910
essential trace elements with a healthy

1698
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start back at lady talk live.com or call

1699
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eight five five three three three lady

1700
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that's 855 three three three five two

1701
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three nine research shows it's not just

1702
01:19:23,110 --> 01:19:20,750
what you put in your body that counts

1703
01:19:25,330 --> 01:19:23,120
it's what you put on it as well why not

1704
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use an all-natural healthy mineral base

1705
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makeup that actually benefits your skin

1706
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once you experience the airiness and

1707
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1708
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makeup you will never use anything else

1709
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1710
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complexion will be natural perfection

1711
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animal friendly mineral makeup at

1712
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Marylou health that's ma RI lu health

1713
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calm or call eight five five three two

1714
01:19:50,950 --> 01:19:48,710
one health we live in a complicated

1715
01:19:52,660 --> 01:19:50,960
society stressful issues are always

1716
01:19:54,670 --> 01:19:52,670
popping up have you ever been treated

1717
01:19:56,620 --> 01:19:54,680
unfairly by someone have you ever been

1718
01:19:58,900 --> 01:19:56,630
overcharged for a repair have you ever

1719
01:20:01,270 --> 01:19:58,910
signed a contract or a document worried

1720
01:20:02,740 --> 01:20:01,280
about identity theft how many times have

1721
01:20:04,090 --> 01:20:02,750
you been in those unique situations

1722
01:20:05,560 --> 01:20:04,100
where you just wanted to call an

1723
01:20:08,200 --> 01:20:05,570
attorney to find out if you're right or

1724
01:20:09,520 --> 01:20:08,210
wrong or what your legal rights are but

1725
01:20:11,170 --> 01:20:09,530
every time you think about calling an

1726
01:20:13,780 --> 01:20:11,180
attorney what do you think about first

1727
01:20:16,180 --> 01:20:13,790
that's right who do you call and how

1728
01:20:18,040 --> 01:20:16,190
much will it cost our friends at Legal

1729
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Shield have found a solution with a

1730
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1731
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1732
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1733
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1734
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1735
01:20:33,700 --> 01:20:31,640
to legal shield on everything from the

1736
01:20:35,830 --> 01:20:33,710
trivial to the traumatic let legal

1737
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1738
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1739
01:20:49,260 --> 01:20:45,410
4 0 save 855 3 4 0 72 83 results will

1740
01:20:55,690 --> 01:20:52,810
hi this is Don Ecker and you are tuned

1741
01:20:58,140 --> 01:20:55,700
in to the para cast let me tell you what

1742
01:21:01,590 --> 01:20:58,150
you're gonna hear stuff here that you

1743
01:21:04,860 --> 01:21:01,600
probably won't hear anywhere else here

1744
01:21:07,130 --> 01:21:04,870
that George Noory so we're looking here

1745
01:21:10,350 --> 01:21:07,140
about the world of cultural phenomena

1746
01:21:16,250 --> 01:21:10,360
archetypes the trickster George Hansen

1747
01:21:19,350 --> 01:21:16,260
is a trickster a singular force a force

1748
01:21:22,169 --> 01:21:19,360
collectively what is a trickster or

1749
01:21:24,590 --> 01:21:22,179
doctor I don't I don't use those words

1750
01:21:27,930 --> 01:21:24,600
to describe but I describe it as a

1751
01:21:31,380 --> 01:21:27,940
constellation of characteristics or

1752
01:21:34,410 --> 01:21:31,390
qualities and these qualities include

1753
01:21:36,840 --> 01:21:34,420
things like disruption whether it's an

1754
01:21:39,510 --> 01:21:36,850
individual's life or in the life of a

1755
01:21:42,570 --> 01:21:39,520
society or large culture of our nation

1756
01:21:44,520 --> 01:21:42,580
there is deception when people are not

1757
01:21:48,120 --> 01:21:44,530
honest when an individual may not be

1758
01:21:51,899 --> 01:21:48,130
when a society may not be that is one

1759
01:21:54,830 --> 01:21:51,909
aspect of this consolation also the

1760
01:21:58,470 --> 01:21:54,840
trickster constellation involves

1761
01:22:01,410 --> 01:21:58,480
violation of sexual taboos it typically

1762
01:22:05,180 --> 01:22:01,420
also involves emergence of paranormal

1763
01:22:08,790 --> 01:22:05,190
phenomena supernatural phenomena and

1764
01:22:11,430 --> 01:22:08,800
typically these but what constellation

1765
01:22:14,490 --> 01:22:11,440
involves what's called marginality being

1766
01:22:18,180 --> 01:22:14,500
sort of at the edge so these

1767
01:22:22,229 --> 01:22:18,190
characteristics can describe an

1768
01:22:26,810 --> 01:22:22,239
individual a small group a large group

1769
01:22:30,260 --> 01:22:26,820
or even an entire country and when these

1770
01:22:32,910 --> 01:22:30,270
characteristics tend to occur together

1771
01:22:36,330 --> 01:22:32,920
trickster archetype grows and

1772
01:22:39,270 --> 01:22:36,340
strengthens and these aspects of it

1773
01:22:43,229 --> 01:22:39,280
strengthen so this is an abstract

1774
01:22:45,870 --> 01:22:43,239
formulation it's not new to me not I did

1775
01:22:49,169 --> 01:22:45,880
not invent this this is this comes from

1776
01:22:51,689 --> 01:22:49,179
analyses of the trickster by folklore

1777
01:22:55,169 --> 01:22:51,699
synapse apologist and the like you will

1778
01:22:57,840 --> 01:22:55,179
see these qualities emerge and when you

1779
01:23:01,050 --> 01:22:57,850
see them emerge one should be a little

1780
01:23:03,270 --> 01:23:01,060
bit a lot a little bit cautious well

1781
01:23:05,160 --> 01:23:03,280
what did the state of affairs in this

1782
01:23:08,280 --> 01:23:05,170
world right now the trickster is this

1783
01:23:09,769 --> 01:23:08,290
bowie myth that's been gathering us some

1784
01:23:12,919 --> 01:23:09,779
amazing amounts of power

1785
01:23:16,039 --> 01:23:12,929
strength there are if you look at saved

1786
01:23:19,879 --> 01:23:16,049
in Middle East fundamental Islam has a

1787
01:23:23,929 --> 01:23:19,889
strong belief in the jinn that's often

1788
01:23:33,549 --> 01:23:23,939
laughed at in our country but they do

1789
01:23:40,579 --> 01:23:37,039
pardon you can literally take the the

1790
01:23:43,009 --> 01:23:40,589
jinn to court in US okay I wasn't aware

1791
01:23:47,719 --> 01:23:43,019
what interactive yeah there was a case

1792
01:23:51,739 --> 01:23:47,729
back in 2009 where a jinn was sued and

1793
01:23:56,179 --> 01:23:51,749
and they had marshal whatever sort of

1794
01:23:58,069 --> 01:23:56,189
jinn busters to go in and and render the

1795
01:24:01,159 --> 01:23:58,079
illegal decision that the jinn had the

1796
01:24:04,449 --> 01:24:01,169
seasoned assistant and the part this one

1797
01:24:07,239 --> 01:24:04,459
but yeah no this was an actual nutrient

1798
01:24:09,919 --> 01:24:07,249
you know I found it very interesting

1799
01:24:11,689 --> 01:24:09,929
that's how seriously they they take this

1800
01:24:14,329 --> 01:24:11,699
subject over there of course rosemary

1801
01:24:17,539 --> 01:24:14,339
ellen guiley who's been a guest on the

1802
01:24:19,159 --> 01:24:17,549
podcast now number of times she has

1803
01:24:20,839 --> 01:24:19,169
written two very good books about the

1804
01:24:22,909 --> 01:24:20,849
gym which i find fascinating and i

1805
01:24:26,569 --> 01:24:22,919
recommend them to you and all our

1806
01:24:29,359 --> 01:24:26,579
listeners out there okay if one was if

1807
01:24:30,919 --> 01:24:29,369
one was co-written by Philip and Bob

1808
01:24:33,019 --> 01:24:30,929
know I think one should have a little

1809
01:24:36,259 --> 01:24:33,029
bit of skepticism well I think we all

1810
01:24:38,989 --> 01:24:36,269
understand that but she has since done

1811
01:24:43,159 --> 01:24:38,999
another book without Umbro knows good

1812
01:24:46,729 --> 01:24:43,169
participation let me get back to this

1813
01:24:48,859 --> 01:24:46,739
core aspect of defining a trickster and

1814
01:24:52,519 --> 01:24:48,869
let's try to personalize it as much as

1815
01:24:55,429 --> 01:24:52,529
possible so people who believe or

1816
01:24:58,789 --> 01:24:55,439
theorize that UFOs are here from other

1817
01:25:01,059 --> 01:24:58,799
worlds physical aircraft are they all

1818
01:25:05,929 --> 01:25:01,069
barking up the wrong tree or is that not

1819
01:25:08,269 --> 01:25:05,939
mutually exclusive I don't I think it's

1820
01:25:09,739 --> 01:25:08,279
probably barking up the wrong tree but

1821
01:25:13,429 --> 01:25:09,749
there might be something it's a

1822
01:25:17,119 --> 01:25:13,439
hypothesis that can be pursued however

1823
01:25:20,119 --> 01:25:17,129
if one steps back and looks at the UFO

1824
01:25:22,279 --> 01:25:20,129
phenomena and asked okay what is

1825
01:25:23,209 --> 01:25:22,289
happening here when does it happen

1826
01:25:25,969 --> 01:25:23,219
to whom

1827
01:25:29,479 --> 01:25:25,979
does it happen how frequently does it

1828
01:25:33,680 --> 01:25:29,489
happen I don't think you can reasonably

1829
01:25:37,819 --> 01:25:33,690
defend the e key hypothesis very well it

1830
01:25:40,850 --> 01:25:37,829
might seem from a standard normal

1831
01:25:43,370 --> 01:25:40,860
person's idea okay yeah you can pick out

1832
01:25:45,560 --> 01:25:43,380
the data but how do you explain the

1833
01:25:49,910 --> 01:25:45,570
types of people who have these

1834
01:25:52,279 --> 01:25:49,920
experiences why these people who have

1835
01:25:55,250 --> 01:25:52,289
experiences have certain personality

1836
01:26:00,020 --> 01:25:55,260
characteristics typically they're not

1837
01:26:03,529 --> 01:26:00,030
just a random sample and this was shown

1838
01:26:05,689 --> 01:26:03,539
rather clearly by the Roper poll that

1839
01:26:09,020 --> 01:26:05,699
was done back I think in the early 90s

1840
01:26:11,739 --> 01:26:09,030
so you've got that to explain you also

1841
01:26:15,469 --> 01:26:11,749
have to explain well why do we see

1842
01:26:19,009 --> 01:26:15,479
Bigfoot reports sometimes in conjunction

1843
01:26:22,100 --> 01:26:19,019
with UFO phenomena also you have to try

1844
01:26:24,830 --> 01:26:22,110
to explain well how come a whole lot of

1845
01:26:27,680 --> 01:26:24,840
the US government psychic spies have had

1846
01:26:30,890 --> 01:26:27,690
UFO encounters none of these really make

1847
01:26:32,930 --> 01:26:30,900
sense in terms of okay these are

1848
01:26:34,939 --> 01:26:32,940
physical craft coming from other planets

1849
01:26:38,149 --> 01:26:34,949
or like us but they're more advanced

1850
01:26:42,620 --> 01:26:38,159
that does not make it there are a number

1851
01:26:45,680 --> 01:26:42,630
of factors that are associated with UFO

1852
01:26:49,250 --> 01:26:45,690
phenomena that really are not well

1853
01:26:53,719 --> 01:26:49,260
explained by the nuts and bolts

1854
01:26:55,250 --> 01:26:53,729
perspective so to you step back and look

1855
01:26:57,410 --> 01:26:55,260
at the UFO fill it completely

1856
01:26:58,969 --> 01:26:57,420
marginalized why has it what these

1857
01:26:59,959 --> 01:26:58,979
phenomena have been reported for

1858
01:27:02,870 --> 01:26:59,969
thousands of years

1859
01:27:04,969 --> 01:27:02,880
why aren't scientists open there's

1860
01:27:09,020 --> 01:27:04,979
reasons for that it has nothing and that

1861
01:27:11,870 --> 01:27:09,030
those reasons cannot be explained by a

1862
01:27:12,350 --> 01:27:11,880
nuts and bolts approach that's just how

1863
01:27:15,200 --> 01:27:12,360
it is

1864
01:27:17,060 --> 01:27:15,210
well you can't acquire they're taking

1865
01:27:18,979 --> 01:27:17,070
they're coming at the phenomena with

1866
01:27:20,629 --> 01:27:18,989
sort of a predisposed idea they don't

1867
01:27:22,939 --> 01:27:20,639
step back and okay what kinds of

1868
01:27:24,680 --> 01:27:22,949
phenomena are around the UFO phenomenon

1869
01:27:26,989 --> 01:27:24,690
how do we explain them they don't have

1870
01:27:29,270 --> 01:27:26,999
explanations for these the personality

1871
01:27:32,209 --> 01:27:29,280
characteristics of the witnesses the

1872
01:27:36,290 --> 01:27:32,219
year visceral reaction against it by

1873
01:27:37,220 --> 01:27:36,300
mainstream science the ephemeral nature

1874
01:27:39,140 --> 01:27:37,230
of these

1875
01:27:40,790 --> 01:27:39,150
and the fact that these phenomena have

1876
01:27:41,270 --> 01:27:40,800
been reported literally for thousands of

1877
01:27:43,430 --> 01:27:41,280
years

1878
01:27:45,170 --> 01:27:43,440
Jorge let me take a case history here

1879
01:27:47,950 --> 01:27:45,180
because something that's maybe somewhat

1880
01:27:50,690 --> 01:27:47,960
implied there so if there are specific

1881
01:27:53,300 --> 01:27:50,700
characteristics as we look forward to in

1882
01:27:56,780 --> 01:27:53,310
people who see UFOs does that mean if

1883
01:27:59,560 --> 01:27:56,790
you put two people in the street and one

1884
01:28:02,500 --> 01:27:59,570
person says there's that big solid

1885
01:28:05,420 --> 01:28:02,510
bright silvery object flying up there

1886
01:28:08,390 --> 01:28:05,430
the person next to him has a fully

1887
01:28:11,690 --> 01:28:08,400
different background and cultural

1888
01:28:14,420 --> 01:28:11,700
upbringing would he or she see the same

1889
01:28:14,840 --> 01:28:14,430
thing sometimes they do sometimes they

1890
01:28:18,710 --> 01:28:14,850
don't

1891
01:28:21,320 --> 01:28:18,720
I know cases where people have seen

1892
01:28:23,690 --> 01:28:21,330
pretty much identical things other times

1893
01:28:25,700 --> 01:28:23,700
when it's pretty clear only a few people

1894
01:28:28,340 --> 01:28:25,710
see them this also happens in science

1895
01:28:29,870 --> 01:28:28,350
phenomena if you go back 100 years ago

1896
01:28:32,360 --> 01:28:29,880
and read the accounts of spiritual

1897
01:28:35,180 --> 01:28:32,370
sciences some people would start to see

1898
01:28:37,310 --> 01:28:35,190
or experience phenomena you know a few

1899
01:28:39,460 --> 01:28:37,320
minutes or a half hour later other

1900
01:28:42,890 --> 01:28:39,470
people would start to experience as well

1901
01:28:44,660 --> 01:28:42,900
under those kinds of conditions so yes

1902
01:28:47,030 --> 01:28:44,670
this these phenomena are different

1903
01:28:49,310 --> 01:28:47,040
sometimes the phenomena will appear to

1904
01:28:51,830 --> 01:28:49,320
pretty much everyone in the vicinity

1905
01:28:54,830 --> 01:28:51,840
other times only few people will see

1906
01:28:59,590 --> 01:28:54,840
that or experience them that's a

1907
01:29:05,990 --> 01:29:02,170
about the nature of the phenomena

1908
01:29:10,100 --> 01:29:06,000
there's also it seems to me there's

1909
01:29:12,229 --> 01:29:10,110
there's a hint of of sort of magnetism

1910
01:29:15,170 --> 01:29:12,239
if you will some people attract these

1911
01:29:17,479 --> 01:29:15,180
types of experiences to them and in the

1912
01:29:20,540 --> 01:29:17,489
case of someone like a uri geller it

1913
01:29:23,270 --> 01:29:20,550
even then rolls over and has an effect

1914
01:29:24,800 --> 01:29:23,280
on other people around him during some

1915
01:29:28,760 --> 01:29:24,810
of these experiences what's your take on

1916
01:29:31,820 --> 01:29:28,770
him he was studied back at SR I he was

1917
01:29:34,610 --> 01:29:31,830
quite celebrated in the 70s pretty

1918
01:29:37,310 --> 01:29:34,620
inexplicable events were documented

1919
01:29:40,940 --> 01:29:37,320
occurring around him some truly

1920
01:29:43,310 --> 01:29:40,950
mysterious others may be deception was

1921
01:29:44,870 --> 01:29:43,320
involved on the part of Geller what what

1922
01:29:47,930 --> 01:29:44,880
is your take on someone like a uri

1923
01:29:50,090 --> 01:29:47,940
geller is extraordinarily interesting

1924
01:29:50,729 --> 01:29:50,100
and there's been a very good BBC

1925
01:29:53,010 --> 01:29:50,739
document

1926
01:29:55,530 --> 01:29:53,020
treats what is on YouTube maybe still is

1927
01:29:58,290 --> 01:29:55,540
and I think maybe on Vimeo and at the

1928
01:30:00,450 --> 01:29:58,300
end of it Geller comes out and says he

1929
01:30:03,090 --> 01:30:00,460
doesn't really care doesn't really want

1930
01:30:06,450 --> 01:30:03,100
people to know whether he's psychic or

1931
01:30:09,420 --> 01:30:06,460
he's a fake he's very very trickster in

1932
01:30:11,820 --> 01:30:09,430
a lot of ways oh boy now this is getting

1933
01:30:14,220 --> 01:30:11,830
more fascinating and we want to get into

1934
01:30:16,590 --> 01:30:14,230
this in more detail in the next segment

1935
01:30:18,510 --> 01:30:16,600
that just have 15-20 seconds to talk

1936
01:30:21,600 --> 01:30:18,520
about then say all right stop the

1937
01:30:24,450 --> 01:30:21,610
sentence let's go on how's that the book

1938
01:30:26,220 --> 01:30:24,460
the trickster and the paranormal talking

1939
01:30:28,380 --> 01:30:26,230
about eerie Geller with Gina and

1940
01:30:36,550 --> 01:30:28,390
Christian literate test

1941
01:30:44,890 --> 01:30:36,560
[Music]

1942
01:30:51,290 --> 01:30:48,410
en so here's what happened I was placing

1943
01:30:53,570 --> 01:30:51,300
an order online the site went down it

1944
01:30:54,950 --> 01:30:53,580
took hours before it returned but I'd

1945
01:30:57,350 --> 01:30:54,960
already placed the order with another

1946
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company if your site goes down you could

1947
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lose business and if you have a business

1948
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or personal site you'll want to know

1949
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it's easy to run and it will stay online

1950
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at iWeb your site is hosted on one of

1951
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the most reliable networks in the world

1952
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talk to a sales rep at iWeb calm use the

1953
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promo code tech night out for a special

1954
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discount first game attack of the rock

1955
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codes and it was a critically acclaimed

1956
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success and now there is the coming of

1957
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the protectors a former military

1958
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intelligence man is contacted by a space

1959
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woman in a dream a dream that turns out

1960
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to be a nightmare because evil forces on

1961
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our distant planet are planning to

1962
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conquer the earth

1963
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this is gripping science fiction of the

1964
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classic kind attack of the rock ODEs and

1965
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the coming of the protectors find out

1966
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more at Rocko its calm that's rock oh

1967
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it's our Ock oids calm the knowledge of

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1979
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created in the realm of herbal immunity

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for the last two years our team has been

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working with top doctors nutritionists

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1992
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are convinced there is no need ever to

1995
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prepare for any kind of emergency are

1996
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these also folks you buy Christmas

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presents for at thirty day food supply

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at the same time go to 30 day food

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2015
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big berkey water filters yes the gift of

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clean water a gift that provides a great

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in filter replacements that other water

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enough to purify treated untreated or

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and listeners get five percent off all

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2042
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2043
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2044
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ey gift well this Christmas give a big

2045
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hi this is Nick Pope you're listening to

2046
01:35:00,500 --> 01:34:57,780
the parrot ah all right a regular George

2047
01:35:01,100 --> 01:35:00,510
Hansen real or fake or somewhere in

2048
01:35:08,120 --> 01:35:01,110
between

2049
01:35:10,010 --> 01:35:08,130
and Geller has admitted to using

2050
01:35:12,350 --> 01:35:10,020
trickery in the past in fact his

2051
01:35:14,060 --> 01:35:12,360
autobiography he comes out right out and

2052
01:35:17,180 --> 01:35:14,070
says that he has used magic tricks

2053
01:35:21,350 --> 01:35:17,190
he's also been a guest of honor at a

2054
01:35:23,510 --> 01:35:21,360
very large magic convention so and he

2055
01:35:27,050 --> 01:35:23,520
got he was very well received among

2056
01:35:30,740 --> 01:35:27,060
magicians people who perform tricks but

2057
01:35:33,130 --> 01:35:30,750
he's also very well regarded among some

2058
01:35:35,810 --> 01:35:33,140
of the scientists at SSRI who

2059
01:35:37,820 --> 01:35:35,820
investigated him and in the BBC

2060
01:35:40,010 --> 01:35:37,830
documentary there are some very

2061
01:35:43,220 --> 01:35:40,020
impressive accounts of what Geller has

2062
01:35:45,980 --> 01:35:43,230
done he's also was in that documentary

2063
01:35:49,250 --> 01:35:45,990
there was very positive statements by

2064
01:35:51,650 --> 01:35:49,260
none other than Benjamin Netanyahu so

2065
01:35:53,840 --> 01:35:51,660
there's all sorts of intrigue and

2066
01:35:56,270 --> 01:35:53,850
because of gallery's position in

2067
01:35:58,520 --> 01:35:56,280
government and in intelligent and with

2068
01:36:00,920 --> 01:35:58,530
intelligence work we're never really

2069
01:36:04,730 --> 01:36:00,930
going to know and that's how killer

2070
01:36:07,370 --> 01:36:04,740
wants it so this is characteristic of

2071
01:36:11,060 --> 01:36:07,380
this this is nothing new there been

2072
01:36:15,170 --> 01:36:11,070
people like Geller in the past who have

2073
01:36:19,460 --> 01:36:15,180
this very ambiguous role no one is

2074
01:36:23,480 --> 01:36:19,470
really sure is he real is he fake is he

2075
01:36:27,200 --> 01:36:23,490
both this is the crux of this of the

2076
01:36:31,010 --> 01:36:27,210
matter and this property this example

2077
01:36:31,220 --> 01:36:31,020
really exemplifies what we're dealing

2078
01:36:33,980 --> 01:36:31,230
with

2079
01:36:36,260 --> 01:36:33,990
Geller's had UFO experiences he

2080
01:36:39,530 --> 01:36:36,270
attributed some of his powers to those

2081
01:36:42,590 --> 01:36:39,540
experiences he's also a Mendes you know

2082
01:36:44,390 --> 01:36:42,600
very very famous psychic so again we

2083
01:36:46,790 --> 01:36:44,400
have those things occurring together

2084
01:36:49,580 --> 01:36:46,800
this makes it very very uncomfortable

2085
01:36:51,790 --> 01:36:49,590
for normal science but this is what we

2086
01:36:54,470 --> 01:36:51,800
have this is the properties are

2087
01:36:56,930 --> 01:36:54,480
characteristics of the phenomena we are

2088
01:36:59,510 --> 01:36:56,940
dealing with and any theory that's

2089
01:37:03,050 --> 01:36:59,520
comprehensive tasks to address these

2090
01:37:06,200 --> 01:37:03,060
qualities my favorite ordeal one of my

2091
01:37:07,570 --> 01:37:06,210
favorite figures of this ilk where this

2092
01:37:11,720 --> 01:37:07,580
type was the nineteenth-century

2093
01:37:14,210 --> 01:37:11,730
spiritualist David home amazing accounts

2094
01:37:16,880 --> 01:37:14,220
of witnesses of some of his alleged

2095
01:37:19,970 --> 01:37:16,890
ability is floating out a window of a

2096
01:37:23,540 --> 01:37:19,980
14-story window of a hotel and floating

2097
01:37:25,940 --> 01:37:23,550
back in the other window hanging going

2098
01:37:27,880 --> 01:37:25,950
up into the air and hanging levitating

2099
01:37:31,490 --> 01:37:27,890
up towards the top of the ceiling

2100
01:37:36,190 --> 01:37:31,500
manifesting spectral musicians any

2101
01:37:38,660 --> 01:37:36,200
number of very mind-warping Lee bizarre

2102
01:37:42,050 --> 01:37:38,670
experiences of people claim they had

2103
01:37:46,040 --> 01:37:42,060
around the guy Daniel Hume was a

2104
01:37:49,070 --> 01:37:46,050
particularly an actor however he was

2105
01:37:51,890 --> 01:37:49,080
never convincingly caught in fraud there

2106
01:37:54,380 --> 01:37:51,900
were I found about three allegations

2107
01:37:57,860 --> 01:37:54,390
that had a little bit of merit but a

2108
01:38:01,070 --> 01:37:57,870
very great much larger number of people

2109
01:38:03,260 --> 01:38:01,080
who attested to his genuineness so the

2110
01:38:06,350 --> 01:38:03,270
deception there there might have been

2111
01:38:09,830 --> 01:38:06,360
some but not nearly to the extent of Uri

2112
01:38:13,060 --> 01:38:09,840
Geller but and even skeptics people like

2113
01:38:16,250 --> 01:38:13,070
Ray Hyman or Peter Lamont who written on

2114
01:38:18,740 --> 01:38:16,260
Daniel Hume have come away a little bit

2115
01:38:21,050 --> 01:38:18,750
puzzled and they can't fully explain it

2116
01:38:24,290 --> 01:38:21,060
they do believe he was using tricks but

2117
01:38:26,270 --> 01:38:24,300
they don't really know how so Hume also

2118
01:38:32,540 --> 01:38:26,280
like Geller has this sort of ambiguous

2119
01:38:34,340 --> 01:38:32,550
role and very perplexing case so yes we

2120
01:38:38,300 --> 01:38:34,350
kind of walk away and wonder well what's

2121
01:38:40,310 --> 01:38:38,310
real here and again this is a property

2122
01:38:43,360 --> 01:38:40,320
of the paranormal or supernatural and

2123
01:38:46,100 --> 01:38:43,370
our understanding of it must encompass

2124
01:38:49,580 --> 01:38:46,110
its aspect let me tell you a little

2125
01:38:52,700 --> 01:38:49,590
story about regular never met him always

2126
01:38:56,060 --> 01:38:52,710
was skeptical to some degree and back in

2127
01:38:58,880 --> 01:38:56,070
the 70s I was stating a young woman an

2128
01:39:01,850 --> 01:38:58,890
actress singer who told me at the time

2129
01:39:05,800 --> 01:39:01,860
she saw regular on a TV interview show

2130
01:39:10,280 --> 01:39:05,810
she had a spoon in her hand that then

2131
01:39:14,150 --> 01:39:10,290
proceeded to bend now she had no reason

2132
01:39:16,069 --> 01:39:14,160
to fake me out or lie to me so I accept

2133
01:39:18,919 --> 01:39:16,079
the fact that this happened to her

2134
01:39:21,200 --> 01:39:18,929
and this I guess is part and parcel of

2135
01:39:23,810 --> 01:39:21,210
what has happened to a lot of people

2136
01:39:25,609 --> 01:39:23,820
watching him in action I've heard this

2137
01:39:27,680 --> 01:39:25,619
from other people as well I don't

2138
01:39:29,660 --> 01:39:27,690
dismiss those stories again it's not

2139
01:39:32,030 --> 01:39:29,670
strong scientific evidence but when you

2140
01:39:35,030 --> 01:39:32,040
have these stories over and over and we

2141
01:39:38,209 --> 01:39:35,040
have there is the history of something

2142
01:39:41,330 --> 01:39:38,219
like a contagion when very charismatic

2143
01:39:43,549 --> 01:39:41,340
figure right Geller displays these these

2144
01:39:45,680 --> 01:39:43,559
powers other people kind of pick up on

2145
01:39:48,080 --> 01:39:45,690
it for a while it doesn't happen again

2146
01:39:51,490 --> 01:39:48,090
to them but in their presence something

2147
01:39:54,799 --> 01:39:51,500
happens so Geller has what is called

2148
01:39:57,500 --> 01:39:54,809
charisma and a lot of it and again in

2149
01:40:00,200 --> 01:39:57,510
charisma is a very interesting quality

2150
01:40:03,200 --> 01:40:00,210
because it was one of the primary

2151
01:40:06,350 --> 01:40:03,210
writers on charisma was a man named Max

2152
01:40:09,290 --> 01:40:06,360
Weber Weber was one of the most

2153
01:40:11,299 --> 01:40:09,300
prominent and influential sociologists

2154
01:40:13,970 --> 01:40:11,309
in the history of the discipline in fact

2155
01:40:17,390 --> 01:40:13,980
he is considered one of the founders of

2156
01:40:20,089 --> 01:40:17,400
modern sociology he's got a number of

2157
01:40:22,520 --> 01:40:20,099
books and they are considered some of

2158
01:40:26,120 --> 01:40:22,530
the most important foundational works

2159
01:40:29,209 --> 01:40:26,130
in sociology one of those works that you

2160
01:40:33,160 --> 01:40:29,219
can find is the sociology of religion on

2161
01:40:36,890 --> 01:40:33,170
page two of the sociology of religion

2162
01:40:40,640 --> 01:40:36,900
weber talks about divination weather

2163
01:40:44,270 --> 01:40:40,650
control telepathy in Miracles page two

2164
01:40:46,370 --> 01:40:44,280
if you go to almost any book on charisma

2165
01:40:49,100 --> 01:40:46,380
in the academic literature or any

2166
01:40:52,370 --> 01:40:49,110
article in the academic literature you

2167
01:40:55,879 --> 01:40:52,380
will very rarely find any mention of

2168
01:40:58,879 --> 01:40:55,889
this the academics avoid talking about

2169
01:41:01,399 --> 01:40:58,889
it and I I took a sample of something

2170
01:41:03,229 --> 01:41:01,409
like twenty to thirty articles and look

2171
01:41:05,689 --> 01:41:03,239
for it occasionally it would be

2172
01:41:08,060 --> 01:41:05,699
mentioned just in passing but this was

2173
01:41:11,569 --> 01:41:08,070
fundamental to understanding pure

2174
01:41:14,990 --> 01:41:11,579
charisma and again it is a topic that's

2175
01:41:18,890 --> 01:41:15,000
widely avoided by people who claim to

2176
01:41:22,600 --> 01:41:18,900
have an interest again this avoidance

2177
01:41:25,549 --> 01:41:22,610
this failure to address these phenomena

2178
01:41:29,109 --> 01:41:25,559
rationally is a property of the

2179
01:41:31,509 --> 01:41:29,119
paranormal supernatural or do you

2180
01:41:33,100 --> 01:41:31,519
I wanted to bring up this one thing here

2181
01:41:37,509 --> 01:41:33,110
we were talking about tricksters and

2182
01:41:39,520 --> 01:41:37,519
influences and cultural phenomena and

2183
01:41:42,040 --> 01:41:39,530
that is an article or a series of

2184
01:41:45,009 --> 01:41:42,050
articles that Ray Palmer wrote back in

2185
01:41:46,509 --> 01:41:45,019
the 50s and 60s when people asked him

2186
01:41:49,449 --> 01:41:46,519
what do you think about flying saucers

2187
01:41:54,969 --> 01:41:49,459
and this is what he said the flying

2188
01:41:56,859 --> 01:41:54,979
saucers are here to make us think does

2189
01:42:00,639 --> 01:41:56,869
that sound like an apt description in

2190
01:42:03,819 --> 01:42:00,649
light of the trickster presence I think

2191
01:42:07,359 --> 01:42:03,829
that's a useful perspective to take I

2192
01:42:12,699 --> 01:42:07,369
don't know if these have I'm not sure

2193
01:42:15,969 --> 01:42:12,709
the word purpose it really qualifies

2194
01:42:18,520 --> 01:42:15,979
certainly they do make us think is that

2195
01:42:21,429 --> 01:42:18,530
their purpose I got no idea but they

2196
01:42:25,659 --> 01:42:21,439
certainly do make us think so he's not

2197
01:42:27,819 --> 01:42:25,669
wrong but I'm not sure I'd worded it

2198
01:42:31,179 --> 01:42:27,829
quite that way but yeah they are

2199
01:42:32,859 --> 01:42:31,189
puzzling they are they don't fit in to

2200
01:42:35,379 --> 01:42:32,869
our normal ways of thinking about

2201
01:42:37,479 --> 01:42:35,389
reality and this has been understood for

2202
01:42:39,819 --> 01:42:37,489
thousands of years it's been understood

2203
01:42:42,369 --> 01:42:39,829
that the paranormal or supernatural is

2204
01:42:46,139 --> 01:42:42,379
somehow different it was surrounded by

2205
01:42:49,409 --> 01:42:46,149
rituals it was described by Marilyn and

2206
01:42:54,159 --> 01:42:49,419
we have largely forgotten that today

2207
01:42:56,949 --> 01:42:54,169
back to you back to me but I don't know

2208
01:42:59,919 --> 01:42:56,959
does that also mean here that what we

2209
01:43:01,750 --> 01:42:59,929
see in terms of the UFO phenomenon is

2210
01:43:05,229 --> 01:43:01,760
going to migrate and change over the

2211
01:43:07,659 --> 01:43:05,239
years we've seen some of that already we

2212
01:43:09,609 --> 01:43:07,669
have seen some of that no question about

2213
01:43:12,189 --> 01:43:09,619
it and I think that's an important

2214
01:43:14,589 --> 01:43:12,199
characteristic of it and when it does

2215
01:43:16,959 --> 01:43:14,599
change and when it does appear in

2216
01:43:19,270 --> 01:43:16,969
certain places not others we need to pay

2217
01:43:20,290 --> 01:43:19,280
attention to that there may be some good

2218
01:43:23,619 --> 01:43:20,300
reason for that

2219
01:43:26,949 --> 01:43:23,629
but these phenomena typically tend to

2220
01:43:31,299 --> 01:43:26,959
shift and somehow they reflect and are

2221
01:43:34,149 --> 01:43:31,309
shaped by our consciousness of them and

2222
01:43:37,179 --> 01:43:34,159
I think that's an important aspect as

2223
01:43:39,580 --> 01:43:37,189
well so yes this shape is shifting is

2224
01:43:41,589 --> 01:43:39,590
changing this instability the

2225
01:43:42,450 --> 01:43:41,599
shape-shifting is a quality of the

2226
01:43:44,670 --> 01:43:42,460
trickster

2227
01:43:46,290 --> 01:43:44,680
so I think you've identified an

2228
01:43:47,910 --> 01:43:46,300
important quality here that we need to

2229
01:43:49,620 --> 01:43:47,920
keep in mind when we we think

2230
01:43:53,160 --> 01:43:49,630
theoretically about the nature of these

2231
01:43:55,740 --> 01:43:53,170
phenomena back to you so does that take

2232
01:43:59,070 --> 01:43:55,750
us in a direction where we can wonder

2233
01:44:02,310 --> 01:43:59,080
what will the UFO phenomenon be like 50

2234
01:44:05,340 --> 01:44:02,320
years from now compared to now well it

2235
01:44:07,650 --> 01:44:05,350
may it's big Kenton these phenomena

2236
01:44:11,420 --> 01:44:07,660
tended be reflective of the culture and

2237
01:44:16,050 --> 01:44:11,430
couple examples that I use one was the

2238
01:44:18,330 --> 01:44:16,060
1960s 1960s were times of really

2239
01:44:22,440 --> 01:44:18,340
dramatic social change it had the sexual

2240
01:44:25,800 --> 01:44:22,450
revolution you had the hippies you had

2241
01:44:28,020 --> 01:44:25,810
the space exploration we had the civil

2242
01:44:32,760 --> 01:44:28,030
rights movement it was a time of a lot

2243
01:44:35,850 --> 01:44:32,770
of change between 1964 and 1968 there

2244
01:44:38,220 --> 01:44:35,860
was a what was called a pandemic UFO

2245
01:44:41,100 --> 01:44:38,230
wave it was also a time of great

2246
01:44:43,650 --> 01:44:41,110
creativity in the culture Jacque fillet

2247
01:44:45,960 --> 01:44:43,660
was working on his book but at the same

2248
01:44:48,270 --> 01:44:45,970
very same time they were anthropologist

2249
01:44:51,330 --> 01:44:48,280
writing very innovative works on rich

2250
01:44:54,930 --> 01:44:51,340
ritual and myth so that's one period

2251
01:44:59,060 --> 01:44:54,940
where you saw the UFO phenomena flourish

2252
01:45:01,770 --> 01:44:59,070
and appear that was accompanied by

2253
01:45:04,050 --> 01:45:01,780
things going on in the culture another

2254
01:45:07,290 --> 01:45:04,060
example I use is the fall of the Berlin

2255
01:45:09,390 --> 01:45:07,300
Wall and Eastern Europe 1989

2256
01:45:11,340 --> 01:45:09,400
right that's an area where we should

2257
01:45:14,220 --> 01:45:11,350
let's focus on that in the next segment

2258
01:45:16,350 --> 01:45:14,230
about the fall of the Berlin Wall

2259
01:45:18,330 --> 01:45:16,360
George Hansen joining Jean and Chris

2260
01:45:26,320 --> 01:45:18,340
you're in lupara guest

2261
01:45:33,130 --> 01:45:29,770
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2262
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2279
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2280
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2281
01:46:17,680 --> 01:46:15,830
forcing taxes to service debt this

2282
01:46:19,150 --> 01:46:17,690
capitalism was jefferson correct when

2283
01:46:20,770 --> 01:46:19,160
stating a central bank issuing the

2284
01:46:21,910 --> 01:46:20,780
public currency is a greater menace to

2285
01:46:23,650 --> 01:46:21,920
the liberties of the people than a

2286
01:46:25,060 --> 01:46:23,660
standing army hi Ted Anderson I'm

2287
01:46:26,890 --> 01:46:25,070
placing a free silver dollar in a book

2288
01:46:28,630 --> 01:46:26,900
that explains our monetary system call

2289
01:46:30,550 --> 01:46:28,640
for your copy eight hundred six eight

2290
01:46:33,610 --> 01:46:30,560
six two two three seven it's time to

2291
01:46:39,490 --> 01:46:33,620
understand the system call 866 to 237

2292
01:46:41,560 --> 01:46:39,500
that's 800 686 to 237 it's that time of

2293
01:46:43,870 --> 01:46:41,570
year again and you know what that means

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01:46:46,150 --> 01:46:43,880
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2301
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2302
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[Applause]

2318
01:47:52,240 --> 01:47:47,910
welcome back to the para cast the gold

2319
01:47:56,210 --> 01:47:52,250
standard of paranormal radio and now

2320
01:47:59,129 --> 01:47:56,220
here's Jane Steinberg

2321
01:48:02,020 --> 01:47:59,139
[Music]

2322
01:48:04,600 --> 01:48:02,030
what an intriguing way to end a segment

2323
01:48:06,189 --> 01:48:04,610
the fall of Berlin Wall what does that

2324
01:48:08,290 --> 01:48:06,199
have to do with any of the things we're

2325
01:48:11,589 --> 01:48:08,300
talking about George Hansen please

2326
01:48:13,899 --> 01:48:11,599
explain it's very fundamental to what

2327
01:48:16,899 --> 01:48:13,909
we're talking about and I don't think

2328
01:48:20,430 --> 01:48:16,909
most ufologist understand that with the

2329
01:48:23,770 --> 01:48:20,440
fall of the Berlin Wall we saw a huge

2330
01:48:27,430 --> 01:48:23,780
upsurge in interest in the paranormal

2331
01:48:30,100 --> 01:48:27,440
all across Eastern Europe the same time

2332
01:48:34,629 --> 01:48:30,110
and I'm not sure all the connections we

2333
01:48:37,020 --> 01:48:34,639
saw a huge interest in UFO abductions in

2334
01:48:39,790 --> 01:48:37,030
our country and in Western Europe

2335
01:48:43,060 --> 01:48:39,800
quickly streamers book was getting a lot

2336
01:48:45,669 --> 01:48:43,070
of attention as was Budd Hopkins the UFO

2337
01:48:49,169 --> 01:48:45,679
groups were booming I mean I've been a

2338
01:48:53,140 --> 01:48:49,179
member of our local UFO group for about

2339
01:48:56,319 --> 01:48:53,150
about 25 years now yours back to 89 and

2340
01:48:59,859 --> 01:48:56,329
at that time we had we would have

2341
01:49:02,129 --> 01:48:59,869
standing room only audiences at our

2342
01:49:05,620 --> 01:49:02,139
meetings we would get people coming

2343
01:49:08,319 --> 01:49:05,630
literally two three even four hours away

2344
01:49:11,950 --> 01:49:08,329
to come to our meetings today we don't

2345
01:49:14,350 --> 01:49:11,960
have nearly that level of interest but

2346
01:49:17,410 --> 01:49:14,360
Hopkins Whitley Street we're getting

2347
01:49:21,339 --> 01:49:17,420
literally thousands tens of thousands of

2348
01:49:24,399 --> 01:49:21,349
letters about for people who had

2349
01:49:26,950 --> 01:49:24,409
experiences so something was happening

2350
01:49:29,890 --> 01:49:26,960
in the culture when the Berlin Wall fell

2351
01:49:32,919 --> 01:49:29,900
we also had something of a recession in

2352
01:49:34,089 --> 01:49:32,929
our country I think those are very much

2353
01:49:37,620 --> 01:49:34,099
related

2354
01:49:40,569 --> 01:49:37,630
we had a destabilizing of structure of

2355
01:49:43,540 --> 01:49:40,579
boundaries boundaries and structures

2356
01:49:45,759 --> 01:49:43,550
that really have profound influences on

2357
01:49:48,279 --> 01:49:45,769
us whether we're conscious of them or

2358
01:49:51,009 --> 01:49:48,289
not and it's under those types of

2359
01:49:53,439 --> 01:49:51,019
conditions that we see these phenomena

2360
01:49:56,290 --> 01:49:53,449
manifest this also happens somewhat in

2361
01:49:59,080 --> 01:49:56,300
personal lives one of the ways one of

2362
01:50:01,029 --> 01:49:59,090
the places where people have shift their

2363
01:50:03,879 --> 01:50:01,039
boundaries and their identities and are

2364
01:50:06,819 --> 01:50:03,889
unsaid isn't a teenage years and in

2365
01:50:09,220 --> 01:50:06,829
earlier cultures there were rituals to

2366
01:50:11,680 --> 01:50:09,230
take a person from child to a

2367
01:50:14,500 --> 01:50:11,690
dolt and during those rituals there was

2368
01:50:17,080 --> 01:50:14,510
a period called a liminal time and

2369
01:50:19,420 --> 01:50:17,090
that's where the person was neither a

2370
01:50:23,229 --> 01:50:19,430
child nor adult and they were allowed to

2371
01:50:25,870 --> 01:50:23,239
go out and kill it and they would be

2372
01:50:27,970 --> 01:50:25,880
allowed to sort of go wild and then

2373
01:50:30,100 --> 01:50:27,980
they'd be brought back in with other

2374
01:50:31,630 --> 01:50:30,110
rituals and be made into an adult so

2375
01:50:34,600 --> 01:50:31,640
there was that in-between period that

2376
01:50:37,840 --> 01:50:34,610
was unstable we see the same thing when

2377
01:50:42,000 --> 01:50:37,850
a person dies there's a period of

2378
01:50:44,380 --> 01:50:42,010
mourning and in some cases it's very

2379
01:50:47,590 --> 01:50:44,390
distance it's rather disruptive to a

2380
01:50:51,370 --> 01:50:47,600
family situation even if it's expected

2381
01:50:54,580 --> 01:50:51,380
and there would be rituals to contain

2382
01:50:56,470 --> 01:50:54,590
that but it's during those periods that

2383
01:50:59,530 --> 01:50:56,480
people were much more likely to see

2384
01:51:01,990 --> 01:50:59,540
apparitions of the disease whether they

2385
01:51:04,600 --> 01:51:02,000
knew they were dead or not the phenomena

2386
01:51:06,460 --> 01:51:04,610
of apparitions of the deceased really

2387
01:51:08,050 --> 01:51:06,470
peaked around the time a little bit

2388
01:51:10,479 --> 01:51:08,060
before a little bit after that people

2389
01:51:13,960 --> 01:51:10,489
died so again we see a particular time

2390
01:51:16,750 --> 01:51:13,970
slot where phenomena occurred and there

2391
01:51:19,390 --> 01:51:16,760
was a major transition in society or in

2392
01:51:21,820 --> 01:51:19,400
a human life so this idea of transition

2393
01:51:24,760 --> 01:51:21,830
is very important breaking down or

2394
01:51:26,590 --> 01:51:24,770
change seems to be associated with these

2395
01:51:29,050 --> 01:51:26,600
phenomena and we see that in the

2396
01:51:31,150 --> 01:51:29,060
laboratory as well as in ethnographic

2397
01:51:34,390 --> 01:51:31,160
data and historical data

2398
01:51:36,760 --> 01:51:34,400
so these pnom are somehow linked well

2399
01:51:38,380 --> 01:51:36,770
that's a perfect lead-in for a question

2400
01:51:41,680 --> 01:51:38,390
that we have for you George

2401
01:51:45,460 --> 01:51:41,690
at forum dr. Perik asked calm burnt

2402
01:51:48,820 --> 01:51:45,470
State is a real seeker out there is one

2403
01:51:50,680 --> 01:51:48,830
of our top posters and he has a three

2404
01:51:53,050 --> 01:51:50,690
very good questions and one of them is

2405
01:51:56,320 --> 01:51:53,060
exactly about what you're just referring

2406
01:51:58,540 --> 01:51:56,330
to and he says an Arnold van naps the

2407
01:52:00,220 --> 01:51:58,550
rites of passage it says that the

2408
01:52:02,710 --> 01:52:00,230
coming-of-age rituals moves through a

2409
01:52:04,950 --> 01:52:02,720
three-part process of separation the

2410
01:52:07,960 --> 01:52:04,960
liminal period and then reassimilation

2411
01:52:10,090 --> 01:52:07,970
he's noticed that experiences of unique

2412
01:52:11,979 --> 01:52:10,100
phenomenon who have been touched by the

2413
01:52:13,990 --> 01:52:11,989
liminal period are not reassimilated

2414
01:52:16,510 --> 01:52:14,000
into our culture but are called coups

2415
01:52:19,090 --> 01:52:16,520
crazies and weirdos who probably wear

2416
01:52:21,280 --> 01:52:19,100
tinfoil hats why do you think we no

2417
01:52:23,189 --> 01:52:21,290
longer honor and celebrate the person

2418
01:52:25,049 --> 01:52:23,199
who has gone through such experiences

2419
01:52:26,699 --> 01:52:25,059
and what are the consequences to human

2420
01:52:28,020 --> 01:52:26,709
culture when their knowledge and

2421
01:52:30,719 --> 01:52:28,030
experience is no longer being

2422
01:52:32,850 --> 01:52:30,729
assimilated into our society really good

2423
01:52:35,489 --> 01:52:32,860
question that's a really terrific

2424
01:52:37,500 --> 01:52:35,499
question and I'd have to think about it

2425
01:52:40,169 --> 01:52:37,510
a lot there's a lot of the implications

2426
01:52:42,180 --> 01:52:40,179
this questioner here obviously has done

2427
01:52:43,819 --> 01:52:42,190
a lot of studies because he's quite

2428
01:52:47,459 --> 01:52:43,829
right people who have these experiences

2429
01:52:50,250 --> 01:52:47,469
often are not effectively reintegrated

2430
01:52:52,169 --> 01:52:50,260
into the culture so they seek out UFO

2431
01:52:53,969 --> 01:52:52,179
groups and other paranormal groups to

2432
01:52:56,640 --> 01:52:53,979
try to make some sense of what they

2433
01:52:59,819 --> 01:52:56,650
underwent what are the implications for

2434
01:53:02,399 --> 01:52:59,829
it well it's hard to know for sure but I

2435
01:53:05,219 --> 01:53:02,409
think when these phenomena are not

2436
01:53:08,459 --> 01:53:05,229
recognized it's not altogether healthy

2437
01:53:10,949 --> 01:53:08,469
for a society and you will have certain

2438
01:53:14,160 --> 01:53:10,959
types of breakdowns these phenomena can

2439
01:53:17,430 --> 01:53:14,170
to erupt somehow in periods where it's

2440
01:53:19,739 --> 01:53:17,440
unexpected I'm not ready to make any

2441
01:53:21,029 --> 01:53:19,749
real statements as to what we should

2442
01:53:23,370 --> 01:53:21,039
expect I've got it I've been thinking

2443
01:53:25,500 --> 01:53:23,380
about this a lot and I will be

2444
01:53:27,479 --> 01:53:25,510
continuing to think about it but your

2445
01:53:30,270 --> 01:53:27,489
questioner has raised a very very

2446
01:53:33,239 --> 01:53:30,280
significant point when we ignore these

2447
01:53:37,410 --> 01:53:33,249
phenomena they tend to erupt in ways

2448
01:53:41,069 --> 01:53:37,420
that we don't expect I'm not quite ready

2449
01:53:43,890 --> 01:53:41,079
to say too much more right now but at

2450
01:53:46,350 --> 01:53:43,900
one point here's a follow-up to that in

2451
01:53:48,270 --> 01:53:46,360
your opinion are there strategies that

2452
01:53:50,399 --> 01:53:48,280
an individual can use to enter the

2453
01:53:52,080 --> 01:53:50,409
liminal zone and if so what are the

2454
01:53:53,850 --> 01:53:52,090
dangers of getting up close to the

2455
01:53:55,649 --> 01:53:53,860
trickster given the lack of current

2456
01:53:57,589 --> 01:53:55,659
support how should a person go about

2457
01:54:00,719 --> 01:53:57,599
reassimilated themselves into society

2458
01:54:02,479 --> 01:54:00,729
following such experiences I could

2459
01:54:07,979 --> 01:54:02,489
probably take a stab at that one as well

2460
01:54:10,290 --> 01:54:07,989
well go ahead go ahead well keep an open

2461
01:54:11,910 --> 01:54:10,300
mind and get a support structure around

2462
01:54:14,370 --> 01:54:11,920
you have people that that know you're

2463
01:54:18,000 --> 01:54:14,380
not a cuckoo-crazy wearing a tinfoil hat

2464
01:54:20,609 --> 01:54:18,010
and you know start with an individual by

2465
01:54:23,430 --> 01:54:20,619
individual find the support structure

2466
01:54:25,529 --> 01:54:23,440
that you can rely on and then you know

2467
01:54:27,060 --> 01:54:25,539
take it with baby steps one step at a

2468
01:54:29,310 --> 01:54:27,070
time all right I think joining groups

2469
01:54:31,350 --> 01:54:29,320
you know I've always kind of used the

2470
01:54:33,550 --> 01:54:31,360
Groucho maximov I'd never be a member of

2471
01:54:35,560 --> 01:54:33,560
a group that would have me as one but

2472
01:54:39,730 --> 01:54:35,570
the group by the way may think the same

2473
01:54:41,470 --> 01:54:39,740
of you probably I turned Steven Greer

2474
01:54:44,590 --> 01:54:41,480
down for a lifetime membership of C

2475
01:54:47,350 --> 01:54:44,600
steady and I use that very quote but but

2476
01:54:50,950 --> 01:54:47,360
I would say to to you know have a have a

2477
01:54:54,190 --> 01:54:50,960
a personal support system around you of

2478
01:54:57,130 --> 01:54:54,200
individuals who you can bounce some of

2479
01:55:00,970 --> 01:54:57,140
these issues off of and and become more

2480
01:55:03,850 --> 01:55:00,980
aware of your personal rituals in your

2481
01:55:07,180 --> 01:55:03,860
life and how those can affect how you

2482
01:55:09,520 --> 01:55:07,190
are life unfolds in the society and in

2483
01:55:12,820 --> 01:55:09,530
the culture and be open-minded and

2484
01:55:15,760 --> 01:55:12,830
become become a seeker and continue to

2485
01:55:18,280 --> 01:55:15,770
ask relevant important questions and do

2486
01:55:19,630 --> 01:55:18,290
your own research and really really work

2487
01:55:22,300 --> 01:55:19,640
at it it's not something that you're

2488
01:55:25,560 --> 01:55:22,310
gonna learn by turning on the TV by

2489
01:55:29,080 --> 01:55:25,570
zeroing in on the internet haphazardly

2490
01:55:31,630 --> 01:55:29,090
it's something that you need to allow

2491
01:55:34,450 --> 01:55:31,640
synchronicity and the signals in your

2492
01:55:36,640 --> 01:55:34,460
life be able to identify those and know

2493
01:55:39,030 --> 01:55:36,650
when it's it's time to really stop what

2494
01:55:41,650 --> 01:55:39,040
you're doing and focus on a particular

2495
01:55:43,030 --> 01:55:41,660
coincidental event that may have some

2496
01:55:45,010 --> 01:55:43,040
relevance that you're not aware of at

2497
01:55:46,420 --> 01:55:45,020
the time write everything down that's

2498
01:55:48,550 --> 01:55:46,430
the one that I always tell everybody

2499
01:55:49,420 --> 01:55:48,560
always write things down because even

2500
01:55:52,330 --> 01:55:49,430
though they might might seem

2501
01:55:54,070 --> 01:55:52,340
inconsequential at the moment six months

2502
01:55:56,460 --> 01:55:54,080
from now if you look back at these

2503
01:55:58,660 --> 01:55:56,470
things you tend to look and see

2504
01:56:00,580 --> 01:55:58,670
potential patterns and that's something

2505
01:56:02,710 --> 01:56:00,590
that I've done I think fairly

2506
01:56:05,860 --> 01:56:02,720
effectively in my life well thank you I

2507
01:56:07,600 --> 01:56:05,870
don't have a lot to add to that but I'd

2508
01:56:09,850 --> 01:56:07,610
like to reinforce the idea of a support

2509
01:56:11,890 --> 01:56:09,860
structure I try to know people in a

2510
01:56:16,000 --> 01:56:11,900
variety of different groups not just one

2511
01:56:18,010 --> 01:56:16,010
or two and keep contacts open also I

2512
01:56:21,160 --> 01:56:18,020
generally recommend people well don't

2513
01:56:23,140 --> 01:56:21,170
quit your day job in most cases try to

2514
01:56:24,880 --> 01:56:23,150
keep some kind of order in your life

2515
01:56:27,070 --> 01:56:24,890
that you can go do and just kind of keep

2516
01:56:29,490 --> 01:56:27,080
it keep things a little bit separate I

2517
01:56:31,990 --> 01:56:29,500
for instance we where we talk about

2518
01:56:33,160 --> 01:56:32,000
paranormal topics in a work situation if

2519
01:56:34,870 --> 01:56:33,170
someone wants to bring it up I'll be

2520
01:56:39,880 --> 01:56:34,880
happy to talk to them but I I really

2521
01:56:41,590 --> 01:56:39,890
don't talk about it very openly but ever

2522
01:56:43,330 --> 01:56:41,600
since I got involved in this field they

2523
01:56:45,940 --> 01:56:43,340
made a point of checking out a variety

2524
01:56:47,260 --> 01:56:45,950
of different groups and including

2525
01:56:50,200 --> 01:56:47,270
skeptics groups

2526
01:56:50,860 --> 01:56:50,210
and I think that has been helpful for me

2527
01:56:52,750 --> 01:56:50,870
anyway

2528
01:56:54,729 --> 01:56:52,760
I don't think skeptics groups will be

2529
01:56:56,979 --> 01:56:54,739
appropriate for most people but for

2530
01:56:59,650 --> 01:56:56,989
someone with they're probably a fairly

2531
01:57:02,260 --> 01:56:59,660
strong scientific orientation they can

2532
01:57:05,100 --> 01:57:02,270
be so I think you've given some very

2533
01:57:07,660 --> 01:57:05,110
good at night here back to you guys

2534
01:57:09,970 --> 01:57:07,670
here's the third question that Bern

2535
01:57:13,030 --> 01:57:09,980
state is asking it's a good one too and

2536
01:57:14,620 --> 01:57:13,040
we break right after this okay well it's

2537
01:57:16,750 --> 01:57:14,630
a long question so let's go ahead and

2538
01:57:19,240 --> 01:57:16,760
and and we'll take it up in the next

2539
01:57:20,590 --> 01:57:19,250
segment but basically it's it's like

2540
01:57:23,470 --> 01:57:20,600
what is the effect of the digital

2541
01:57:25,660 --> 01:57:23,480
revolution on this particular

2542
01:57:28,330 --> 01:57:25,670
transformative personal process that

2543
01:57:35,310 --> 01:57:28,340
we're talking about paranormal phenomena

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hear from you if you have a comment or

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02:01:51,129 --> 02:01:47,239
muse at the para cast com

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02:01:53,050 --> 02:01:51,139
that's news at the para cast and don't

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02:01:59,500 --> 02:01:53,060
forget to visit our famous para cast

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02:02:02,350 --> 02:01:59,510
community forums at for America's so are

2629
02:02:04,419 --> 02:02:02,360
we all becoming digital what about AI

2630
02:02:06,189 --> 02:02:04,429
artificial intelligence but a very

2631
02:02:10,090 --> 02:02:06,199
interesting question from burnt State

2632
02:02:11,860 --> 02:02:10,100
who's one of our smartest posters on the

2633
02:02:14,200 --> 02:02:11,870
forums that formed off the para cast

2634
02:02:16,149 --> 02:02:14,210
calm quick reminder before we get back

2635
02:02:21,939 --> 02:02:16,159
with Chris's question and George Hansen

2636
02:02:25,240 --> 02:02:21,949
go to plus.com right now PL us dot to

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02:02:27,370 --> 02:02:25,250
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out all the information about signing up

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and the new exclusive after the para

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para cast plus Cris a lot of studies

2644
02:02:46,270 --> 02:02:44,360
around the trickster as a figure descend

2645
02:02:48,790 --> 02:02:46,280
from the anthropological studies and

2646
02:02:51,610 --> 02:02:48,800
connects concepts of how people progress

2647
02:02:54,430 --> 02:02:51,620
through their society by some type of

2648
02:02:56,620 --> 02:02:54,440
initiation process that is paradigm

2649
02:02:58,090 --> 02:02:56,630
shifting and profoundly experiential the

2650
02:02:59,740 --> 02:02:58,100
type of thing that you were talking

2651
02:03:02,439 --> 02:02:59,750
about before and we still see Indian

2652
02:03:04,419 --> 02:03:02,449
indigenous cultures today these often

2653
02:03:06,550 --> 02:03:04,429
happen in the wilderness in the familiar

2654
02:03:08,530 --> 02:03:06,560
isolated spaces where we see UFOs

2655
02:03:11,740 --> 02:03:08,540
Bigfoot's monsters and otherworldly

2656
02:03:13,870 --> 02:03:11,750
beings have you Jorge noticed any shift

2657
02:03:16,180 --> 02:03:13,880
in how the trickster presents itself in

2658
02:03:18,700 --> 02:03:16,190
an age of urban living during the

2659
02:03:20,439 --> 02:03:18,710
digital revolution and do you think we

2660
02:03:22,390 --> 02:03:20,449
can still experience these personally

2661
02:03:24,740 --> 02:03:22,400
transformative events inside this

2662
02:03:27,230 --> 02:03:24,750
wilderness of digital culture and

2663
02:03:29,930 --> 02:03:27,240
a very good question okay this is very

2664
02:03:32,540 --> 02:03:29,940
broad and I'm gonna focus it just a

2665
02:03:34,790 --> 02:03:32,550
little bit I'd like to talk about the

2666
02:03:36,650 --> 02:03:34,800
digital revolution and the Internet and

2667
02:03:38,570 --> 02:03:36,660
the light this emits an extraordinarily

2668
02:03:41,060 --> 02:03:38,580
good question one of the people who's

2669
02:03:44,270 --> 02:03:41,070
written a little bit on it is uh Eric

2670
02:03:46,250 --> 02:03:44,280
Davis and his book tech gnosis but I'd

2671
02:03:50,000 --> 02:03:46,260
like to point out that the Internet

2672
02:03:51,860 --> 02:03:50,010
itself has had major influences on our

2673
02:03:54,680 --> 02:03:51,870
culture and society that are very much

2674
02:03:56,990 --> 02:03:54,690
trickster in nature first of all the

2675
02:03:59,960 --> 02:03:57,000
trickster is typically a boundary

2676
02:04:02,000 --> 02:03:59,970
destroyer or boundary crosser and the

2677
02:04:03,830 --> 02:04:02,010
Internet allows enormous

2678
02:04:05,990 --> 02:04:03,840
interconnectivity and crossing

2679
02:04:09,200 --> 02:04:06,000
boundaries international boundaries eyes

2680
02:04:12,050 --> 02:04:09,210
communicate with people and Iran in many

2681
02:04:14,090 --> 02:04:12,060
other countries so the boundaries of are

2682
02:04:16,910 --> 02:04:14,100
breaking down just the way we think

2683
02:04:19,670 --> 02:04:16,920
about how our world is built is breaking

2684
02:04:22,280 --> 02:04:19,680
down that's partly trickster also you

2685
02:04:25,130 --> 02:04:22,290
see a lot of deception on the internet

2686
02:04:27,860 --> 02:04:25,140
you don't know what's true what's false

2687
02:04:30,980 --> 02:04:27,870
again very trickster what's one of the

2688
02:04:32,510 --> 02:04:30,990
biggest things sold or her involved in

2689
02:04:34,750 --> 02:04:32,520
internet porn

2690
02:04:38,300 --> 02:04:34,760
well that's violation of sexual taboos

2691
02:04:41,390 --> 02:04:38,310
also it allows the marginal groups the

2692
02:04:43,430 --> 02:04:41,400
little guy a voice and sometimes those

2693
02:04:46,550 --> 02:04:43,440
little guys and those marginal cultures

2694
02:04:49,190 --> 02:04:46,560
can have a significant impact that's

2695
02:04:52,040 --> 02:04:49,200
what's called an inversion of hierarchy

2696
02:04:54,440 --> 02:04:52,050
some of those small people little groups

2697
02:04:58,220 --> 02:04:54,450
can have a major impact

2698
02:05:00,230 --> 02:04:58,230
so the hierarchies are disrupted again

2699
02:05:02,630 --> 02:05:00,240
that's very trickster the trickster is

2700
02:05:04,700 --> 02:05:02,640
an underdog people in the middle and

2701
02:05:07,070 --> 02:05:04,710
minority groups tend to have a greater

2702
02:05:08,990 --> 02:05:07,080
understanding and affinity for the

2703
02:05:11,720 --> 02:05:09,000
trickster than people in positions of

2704
02:05:15,020 --> 02:05:11,730
power so the Internet is very much a

2705
02:05:18,290 --> 02:05:15,030
disruptive technology disruption is part

2706
02:05:20,020 --> 02:05:18,300
of the whole trickster archetype so it's

2707
02:05:23,060 --> 02:05:20,030
hard to predict what's going to happen

2708
02:05:25,850 --> 02:05:23,070
things are more open the more there are

2709
02:05:28,550 --> 02:05:25,860
more possibilities available for us so

2710
02:05:30,590 --> 02:05:28,560
the digital revolution is indeed very

2711
02:05:32,780 --> 02:05:30,600
very trickster it's very hard to make

2712
02:05:34,550 --> 02:05:32,790
strong predictions about it but we

2713
02:05:38,000 --> 02:05:34,560
should be understanding what this

2714
02:05:39,170 --> 02:05:38,010
entails the breakdown of boundaries and

2715
02:05:41,660 --> 02:05:39,180
boundaries break

2716
02:05:44,300 --> 02:05:41,670
when social groups break down well other

2717
02:05:46,970 --> 02:05:44,310
groups are going to form groups that we

2718
02:05:49,850 --> 02:05:46,980
might not be consciously aware of or

2719
02:05:52,280 --> 02:05:49,860
thinking about now because when there is

2720
02:05:54,920 --> 02:05:52,290
a great deal of chaos there's also a

2721
02:05:57,920 --> 02:05:54,930
human tendency to restrict that chaos

2722
02:06:00,050 --> 02:05:57,930
and establish order and structure

2723
02:06:05,120 --> 02:06:00,060
sometimes very very quickly and

2724
02:06:07,460 --> 02:06:05,130
sometimes with not a lot of care for

2725
02:06:11,120 --> 02:06:07,470
human needs easily right just dictate

2726
02:06:12,950 --> 02:06:11,130
Arab Spring us phenomenon yeah a good

2727
02:06:15,140 --> 02:06:12,960
example of social media and then the

2728
02:06:17,810 --> 02:06:15,150
little guy having tremendous influence

2729
02:06:20,000 --> 02:06:17,820
now George you mentioned chaos that's a

2730
02:06:22,190 --> 02:06:20,010
perfect lead-in to a question from Wade

2731
02:06:24,980 --> 02:06:22,200
Ridsdale who's one of our top posters at

2732
02:06:26,990 --> 02:06:24,990
forum dr. Peres cast calm and weight is

2733
02:06:29,270 --> 02:06:27,000
another one of our real thinkers that

2734
02:06:30,860 --> 02:06:29,280
listens to the show and he asked being

2735
02:06:32,960 --> 02:06:30,870
that I am getting obsessed about how the

2736
02:06:34,610 --> 02:06:32,970
principles of chaos theory may be

2737
02:06:36,860 --> 02:06:34,620
intertwined in just about every aspect

2738
02:06:38,930 --> 02:06:36,870
of our reality I would like to hear what

2739
02:06:41,480 --> 02:06:38,940
George has to say about what is the

2740
02:06:44,000 --> 02:06:41,490
relationship if any between a trickster

2741
02:06:45,950 --> 02:06:44,010
element and chaos theory and is it the

2742
02:06:48,290 --> 02:06:45,960
trickster that makes this world or chaos

2743
02:06:49,760 --> 02:06:48,300
or both and of course he says that's a

2744
02:06:52,820 --> 02:06:49,770
play on Lewis Hyde's book trickster

2745
02:06:54,920 --> 02:06:52,830
makes this world hahahaha it's an

2746
02:06:57,470 --> 02:06:54,930
excellent question certainly the

2747
02:07:00,410 --> 02:06:57,480
trickster is sort of the governing

2748
02:07:01,340 --> 02:07:00,420
archetype of the periods of instability

2749
02:07:03,740 --> 02:07:01,350
in chaos

2750
02:07:05,990 --> 02:07:03,750
now the trickster is not completely

2751
02:07:09,470 --> 02:07:06,000
chaotic there is there are certain

2752
02:07:13,010 --> 02:07:09,480
patterns that we can see it's not total

2753
02:07:15,890 --> 02:07:13,020
chaos but it's at the edge between chaos

2754
02:07:18,650 --> 02:07:15,900
and order in more chaotic situations

2755
02:07:22,040 --> 02:07:18,660
things are more in flux so they can be

2756
02:07:23,960 --> 02:07:22,050
more easily influenced and we see this

2757
02:07:27,320 --> 02:07:23,970
in some care psychological laboratory

2758
02:07:30,790 --> 02:07:27,330
work when certain types of systems that

2759
02:07:34,190 --> 02:07:30,800
are more chaotic or tend to fluctuate

2760
02:07:37,010 --> 02:07:34,200
have been shown to be more amenable to

2761
02:07:39,050 --> 02:07:37,020
psychic influence and of course they're

2762
02:07:41,060 --> 02:07:39,060
more amenable to ordinary influences as

2763
02:07:43,160 --> 02:07:41,070
well so it also means they're probably a

2764
02:07:45,500 --> 02:07:43,170
bit more unpredictable but there are

2765
02:07:47,570 --> 02:07:45,510
certain patterns in those types of

2766
02:07:50,150 --> 02:07:47,580
situations we're probably going to

2767
02:07:52,730 --> 02:07:50,160
encounter deception more frequently than

2768
02:07:53,020 --> 02:07:52,740
others we're going to be finding people

2769
02:07:56,650 --> 02:07:53,030
who

2770
02:07:59,350 --> 02:07:56,660
low-status may emerge more often than in

2771
02:08:01,720 --> 02:07:59,360
more stable situations we're going to

2772
02:08:04,990 --> 02:08:01,730
find sexual exploration and violation of

2773
02:08:07,120 --> 02:08:05,000
sexual taboos more common so we do have

2774
02:08:09,160 --> 02:08:07,130
certain patterns we can see but it also

2775
02:08:12,610 --> 02:08:09,170
makes things more unpredictable and

2776
02:08:14,350 --> 02:08:12,620
unstable so back to you guys okay here's

2777
02:08:17,560 --> 02:08:14,360
a question from someone who just signed

2778
02:08:19,660 --> 02:08:17,570
up this past Monday one of our new

2779
02:08:21,430 --> 02:08:19,670
listeners and he's posted his question

2780
02:08:23,170 --> 02:08:21,440
at forum dr. Peric ask.com

2781
02:08:25,510 --> 02:08:23,180
you know we've already kind of briefly

2782
02:08:28,900 --> 02:08:25,520
touched on this but he has an

2783
02:08:31,240 --> 02:08:28,910
interesting question about why and

2784
02:08:33,340 --> 02:08:31,250
possibly give us examples in your belief

2785
02:08:34,930 --> 02:08:33,350
that paranormal events such as UFO

2786
02:08:37,210 --> 02:08:34,940
sightings visits from NGO strange

2787
02:08:39,520 --> 02:08:37,220
creature manifestations tend to occur

2788
02:08:42,040 --> 02:08:39,530
when our society is in transition now

2789
02:08:44,140 --> 02:08:42,050
you did kind of address that but let's

2790
02:08:47,980 --> 02:08:44,150
dig a little deeper on this one you

2791
02:08:51,040 --> 02:08:47,990
mentioned the UFO wave of 66-67 during a

2792
02:08:54,280 --> 02:08:51,050
tremendous time of social Implanon

2793
02:08:55,960 --> 02:08:54,290
country and cultural change I personally

2794
02:08:57,520 --> 02:08:55,970
think psychedelic use may have had

2795
02:09:00,610 --> 02:08:57,530
something to do with it perfectly

2796
02:09:03,460 --> 02:09:00,620
I agree but why do you think this is I

2797
02:09:04,900 --> 02:09:03,470
mean does do these is it the card of the

2798
02:09:07,510 --> 02:09:04,910
horse the chicken of the egg do the

2799
02:09:09,190 --> 02:09:07,520
cultural transitional periods create

2800
02:09:11,320 --> 02:09:09,200
openings for a trickster ish type

2801
02:09:14,860 --> 02:09:11,330
elements or do the tricksters type

2802
02:09:17,620 --> 02:09:14,870
elements allow for the the upheaval and

2803
02:09:22,180 --> 02:09:17,630
change and destabilization of the

2804
02:09:26,440 --> 02:09:22,190
culture excellent question and the

2805
02:09:29,110 --> 02:09:26,450
answer is both this is a constellation

2806
02:09:31,080 --> 02:09:29,120
not a linear cause effect relationship

2807
02:09:33,900 --> 02:09:31,090
it's a bit like synchronicity

2808
02:09:37,360 --> 02:09:33,910
synchronicity is an a causal connection

2809
02:09:40,450 --> 02:09:37,370
connecting principle these things happen

2810
02:09:42,910 --> 02:09:40,460
together you can think of it in either

2811
02:09:44,530 --> 02:09:42,920
direction and this is a little bit

2812
02:09:48,400 --> 02:09:44,540
difficult for a lot of people to grasp

2813
02:09:54,420 --> 02:09:48,410
it's again it time is irrelevant there

2814
02:09:57,220 --> 02:09:54,430
it this is a constellation so certainly

2815
02:09:59,320 --> 02:09:57,230
it's if one encounters a disruptive

2816
02:10:01,630 --> 02:09:59,330
situation that might stimulate these

2817
02:10:03,760 --> 02:10:01,640
paranormal phenomena but if you

2818
02:10:05,980 --> 02:10:03,770
encounter paranormal phenomena they can

2819
02:10:07,090 --> 02:10:05,990
be very much life-changing and very

2820
02:10:09,820 --> 02:10:07,100
destabilizing to

2821
02:10:12,970 --> 02:10:09,830
or will view into your life before this

2822
02:10:15,100 --> 02:10:12,980
show becomes destabilized let's just

2823
02:10:17,670 --> 02:10:15,110
take that pause that refreshes with Jean

2824
02:10:27,279 --> 02:10:17,680
and Chris you're in the para cast

2825
02:10:30,429 --> 02:10:27,289
[Music]

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of Alex Jones because he has the courage

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to speak his mind more than just about

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2921
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2922
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2923
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hi this is ted phillips listening to the

2924
02:14:55,520 --> 02:14:45,780
para cast and it's as good as it gets

2925
02:14:57,890 --> 02:14:55,530
believe me we have george hansen author

2926
02:14:59,480 --> 02:14:57,900
for the trickster in the paranormal and

2927
02:15:02,030 --> 02:14:59,490
we've talked so much about tricksters

2928
02:15:04,760 --> 02:15:02,040
and abductions and other subjects let's

2929
02:15:06,500 --> 02:15:04,770
get to the book here let's focus on that

2930
02:15:09,170 --> 02:15:06,510
for the remaining two segments although

2931
02:15:11,750 --> 02:15:09,180
everything goes back to that book why

2932
02:15:14,930 --> 02:15:11,760
did you write that book why did you feel

2933
02:15:16,700 --> 02:15:14,940
the need to set all this down and make

2934
02:15:19,520 --> 02:15:16,710
it available for people to read for

2935
02:15:21,770 --> 02:15:19,530
posterity George Hansen well that's very

2936
02:15:24,230 --> 02:15:21,780
good question I had worked in

2937
02:15:26,780 --> 02:15:24,240
parapsychology laboratories for eight

2938
02:15:30,320 --> 02:15:26,790
years as I'd mentioned and there were

2939
02:15:35,060 --> 02:15:30,330
certain aspects of that experience I

2940
02:15:37,790 --> 02:15:35,070
just didn't quite understand so for a

2941
02:15:41,000 --> 02:15:37,800
few years I started reading biographies

2942
02:15:43,040 --> 02:15:41,010
of con artists and works on theories of

2943
02:15:45,550 --> 02:15:43,050
deception and started thinking about

2944
02:15:48,440 --> 02:15:45,560
okay what is the connection between

2945
02:15:50,270 --> 02:15:48,450
deception and the paranormal and so I

2946
02:15:53,630 --> 02:15:50,280
started notice well of course there were

2947
02:15:55,340 --> 02:15:53,640
mediums that were deceitful in fact the

2948
02:15:57,080 --> 02:15:55,350
history of mediumship especially

2949
02:15:59,630 --> 02:15:57,090
physical mediumship producing

2950
02:16:03,260 --> 02:15:59,640
large-scale physical phenomena was rife

2951
02:16:06,080 --> 02:16:03,270
with accounts of deceptive mediums okay

2952
02:16:08,900 --> 02:16:06,090
and I went and I was also involved with

2953
02:16:11,960 --> 02:16:08,910
the UFO topic of that so this whole idea

2954
02:16:15,020 --> 02:16:11,970
of deception and UFOs they were just so

2955
02:16:18,290 --> 02:16:15,030
interrelated and there had to be some

2956
02:16:20,810 --> 02:16:18,300
type of connection here I also came

2957
02:16:23,510 --> 02:16:20,820
across the book synchronicity science

2958
02:16:24,950 --> 02:16:23,520
myth and the trickster by combs and

2959
02:16:27,650 --> 02:16:24,960
hound it's a very good book and I highly

2960
02:16:30,470 --> 02:16:27,660
recommend it and they pointed out so I

2961
02:16:33,350 --> 02:16:30,480
put something I had not realized is that

2962
02:16:35,690 --> 02:16:33,360
in many earlier cultures the idea of

2963
02:16:38,870 --> 02:16:35,700
synchronicity and divination and the

2964
02:16:40,640 --> 02:16:38,880
trickster went very much together so

2965
02:16:43,459 --> 02:16:40,650
okay I'm seeing a little connection here

2966
02:16:47,200 --> 02:16:43,469
synchronicity and tricksters very

2967
02:16:49,900 --> 02:16:47,210
interesting then I found an article by

2968
02:16:52,610 --> 02:16:49,910
anthropologist named van read head-on

2969
02:16:55,540 --> 02:16:52,620
structure and anti structure

2970
02:16:57,770 --> 02:16:55,550
I knew that UFO groups and

2971
02:16:59,900 --> 02:16:57,780
parapsychology laboratories and

2972
02:17:02,900 --> 02:16:59,910
spiritualist groups we're not all that

2973
02:17:05,240 --> 02:17:02,910
stable so the term anti structure

2974
02:17:07,220 --> 02:17:05,250
grabbed my attention it was a very very

2975
02:17:09,680 --> 02:17:07,230
interesting article that was published I

2976
02:17:12,890 --> 02:17:09,690
think about 1993 and journal called

2977
02:17:16,250 --> 02:17:12,900
anthropology of consciousness and with

2978
02:17:17,480 --> 02:17:16,260
those things coming together in my mind

2979
02:17:20,390 --> 02:17:17,490
I said aha

2980
02:17:23,810 --> 02:17:20,400
there are some very fundamental linkages

2981
02:17:26,690 --> 02:17:23,820
here anti structure is a synonym of

2982
02:17:28,040 --> 02:17:26,700
liminality and I had read about the

2983
02:17:31,520 --> 02:17:28,050
trickster and I had read about

2984
02:17:33,100 --> 02:17:31,530
liminality and a few articles I had no

2985
02:17:35,780 --> 02:17:33,110
idea of what people were talking about

2986
02:17:38,480 --> 02:17:35,790
then I started reading more deeply and

2987
02:17:41,350 --> 02:17:38,490
more articles and all this started

2988
02:17:43,610 --> 02:17:41,360
coming together so we had a collection a

2989
02:17:44,450 --> 02:17:43,620
confluence of ideas you had the

2990
02:17:47,600 --> 02:17:44,460
trickster

2991
02:17:50,120 --> 02:17:47,610
you had deception you had instability

2992
02:17:53,690 --> 02:17:50,130
you had synchronicity all of these

2993
02:17:57,200 --> 02:17:53,700
things come together in the trickster

2994
02:17:59,500 --> 02:17:57,210
figure and no one really was writing

2995
02:18:02,300 --> 02:17:59,510
about this and I realized these are

2996
02:18:05,240 --> 02:18:02,310
fundamental qualities of the paranormal

2997
02:18:09,020 --> 02:18:05,250
and so that's what it was

2998
02:18:10,879 --> 02:18:09,030
finally the Van Reid had article that

2999
02:18:12,860 --> 02:18:10,889
convinced me there was something very

3000
02:18:14,480 --> 02:18:12,870
fundamental linking these things and

3001
02:18:15,230 --> 02:18:14,490
that's why I wrote the book but thank

3002
02:18:17,330 --> 02:18:15,240
you for asking

3003
02:18:19,370 --> 02:18:17,340
it's as a long expungement explanation I

3004
02:18:22,310 --> 02:18:19,380
don't expect everyone to understand that

3005
02:18:25,129 --> 02:18:22,320
but they were odd things the deception

3006
02:18:26,959 --> 02:18:25,139
the synchronicity in the divination this

3007
02:18:29,660 --> 02:18:26,969
instability in groups

3008
02:18:32,510 --> 02:18:29,670
there's our fundamental linkages and we

3009
02:18:36,379 --> 02:18:32,520
need to understand it and looking at it

3010
02:18:39,020 --> 02:18:36,389
starting with basically these empirical

3011
02:18:41,990 --> 02:18:39,030
observations they have to be related and

3012
02:18:44,120 --> 02:18:42,000
they are right and they did just is

3013
02:18:47,540 --> 02:18:44,130
across the board the influence of these

3014
02:18:49,550 --> 02:18:47,550
elements sweep across the board all the

3015
02:18:51,620 --> 02:18:49,560
way through the culture through various

3016
02:18:56,419 --> 02:18:51,630
fields the scientific fields academia

3017
02:19:00,350 --> 02:18:56,429
through trans-fats I mean the

3018
02:19:02,209 --> 02:19:00,360
application is is actually breathtaking

3019
02:19:04,940 --> 02:19:02,219
when you really look at the element of

3020
02:19:05,660 --> 02:19:04,950
liminality and the structure and ante

3021
02:19:08,089 --> 02:19:05,670
structure

3022
02:19:09,649 --> 02:19:08,099
and destabilization these things are

3023
02:19:13,070 --> 02:19:09,659
really important and play a crucial role

3024
02:19:15,080 --> 02:19:13,080
in all elements of our reality that's

3025
02:19:17,990 --> 02:19:15,090
right and the investigators have to

3026
02:19:19,879 --> 02:19:18,000
realize that when they start a group and

3027
02:19:22,280 --> 02:19:19,889
they go out and investigate they're

3028
02:19:24,169 --> 02:19:22,290
likely to encounter interpersonal

3029
02:19:26,509 --> 02:19:24,179
problems this goes with the territory

3030
02:19:28,879 --> 02:19:26,519
these groups don't last and I was very

3031
02:19:31,879 --> 02:19:28,889
puzzled why they did not last and I had

3032
02:19:34,490 --> 02:19:31,889
observed this and even before I was in

3033
02:19:36,259 --> 02:19:34,500
parapsychology scientifically I was

3034
02:19:38,809 --> 02:19:36,269
involved with paranormal groups and I

3035
02:19:41,780 --> 02:19:38,819
was seeing the same thing and that

3036
02:19:45,139 --> 02:19:41,790
puzzled me but but you're right it's you

3037
02:19:46,729 --> 02:19:45,149
see this across the board and it has to

3038
02:19:49,210 --> 02:19:46,739
be some kind of explanation or

3039
02:19:53,479 --> 02:19:49,220
understanding of this and if we are

3040
02:19:55,760 --> 02:19:53,489
expecting to be accepted and becoming

3041
02:19:58,099 --> 02:19:55,770
integrated into the academic world and

3042
02:20:00,679 --> 02:19:58,109
into the universities we've got a really

3043
02:20:03,050 --> 02:20:00,689
really our expectations and what is

3044
02:20:07,460 --> 02:20:03,060
possible in your dreams pal

3045
02:20:10,070 --> 02:20:07,470
yeah and why is that and what is B why

3046
02:20:12,019 --> 02:20:10,080
why do we encounter that we live in a

3047
02:20:15,590 --> 02:20:12,029
society where everything has to be

3048
02:20:17,590 --> 02:20:15,600
reduced to 140 characters in a Twitter

3049
02:20:19,939 --> 02:20:17,600
post and obviously what you have to say

3050
02:20:24,410 --> 02:20:19,949
hardly makes it with a hundred forty

3051
02:20:26,689 --> 02:20:24,420
thousand our guest right now I don't

3052
02:20:28,700 --> 02:20:26,699
want to belittle anyone's intelligence

3053
02:20:30,950 --> 02:20:28,710
these are very sophisticated concepts

3054
02:20:32,870 --> 02:20:30,960
they go against the mainstream in

3055
02:20:36,920 --> 02:20:32,880
paranormal assuming anything can be

3056
02:20:39,410 --> 02:20:36,930
mainstream so how do we impress upon

3057
02:20:43,070 --> 02:20:39,420
people the need to have this fuller

3058
02:20:44,929 --> 02:20:43,080
understanding and not be so restrictive

3059
02:20:46,820 --> 02:20:44,939
in their approach to following these

3060
02:20:50,000 --> 02:20:46,830
subjects well I think we just have to

3061
02:20:55,820 --> 02:20:50,010
let the people who have those views kind

3062
02:20:58,639 --> 02:20:55,830
of die off well yeah I think that I see

3063
02:21:01,160 --> 02:20:58,649
much more openness to these ideas among

3064
02:21:04,429 --> 02:21:01,170
people in their 20s and 30s you get

3065
02:21:05,149 --> 02:21:04,439
people in their 40s or 50s or 60s they

3066
02:21:08,630 --> 02:21:05,159
don't get it

3067
02:21:10,399 --> 02:21:08,640
present company excluded of course yes

3068
02:21:12,320 --> 02:21:10,409
there are people in the paranormal field

3069
02:21:15,830 --> 02:21:12,330
who've been outsiders to the major

3070
02:21:17,479 --> 02:21:15,840
organizations that do get it I had very

3071
02:21:18,860 --> 02:21:17,489
good conversations with Tim Beck Lee

3072
02:21:20,450 --> 02:21:18,870
about this with stuff

3073
02:21:22,400 --> 02:21:20,460
yeah this is interesting that you

3074
02:21:24,440 --> 02:21:22,410
mentioned Tim Beckley because some

3075
02:21:26,870 --> 02:21:24,450
people think of Tim Beckley is kind of a

3076
02:21:30,170 --> 02:21:26,880
carnival barker because she sells such a

3077
02:21:32,000 --> 02:21:30,180
wide range of paranormal literature and

3078
02:21:34,820 --> 02:21:32,010
some things are maybe less than

3079
02:21:36,620 --> 02:21:34,830
literature oh yeah yeah absolutely

3080
02:21:38,840 --> 02:21:36,630
but he knows lots of stuff and he

3081
02:21:40,969 --> 02:21:38,850
understands it so yeah he's very

3082
02:21:43,790 --> 02:21:40,979
marginal figure and he's been involved

3083
02:21:46,280 --> 02:21:43,800
this even in his teenage years and he's

3084
02:21:48,200 --> 02:21:46,290
made a go of it so he is really worth

3085
02:21:50,650 --> 02:21:48,210
listening to but most people won't

3086
02:21:53,599 --> 02:21:50,660
because of like just what you're saying

3087
02:21:55,580 --> 02:21:53,609
he put out a very good night very nice

3088
02:21:58,219 --> 02:21:55,590
volume on Jim Mosely who's one of my

3089
02:22:00,830 --> 02:21:58,229
heroes and mostly likewise is very much

3090
02:22:02,360 --> 02:22:00,840
a trickster figure Jim of course was one

3091
02:22:03,679 --> 02:22:02,370
of my closest friends of the world and

3092
02:22:08,719 --> 02:22:03,689
I'm sure he was the close friend of

3093
02:22:11,540 --> 02:22:08,729
yours and I knew him since the 1960s he

3094
02:22:13,429 --> 02:22:11,550
as the guest who probably appeared the

3095
02:22:16,610 --> 02:22:13,439
most on the para cast from the very

3096
02:22:19,340 --> 02:22:16,620
first episode until just a few months

3097
02:22:21,380 --> 02:22:19,350
before he died aha and I agree with you

3098
02:22:24,290 --> 02:22:21,390
about his trickster relationship but you

3099
02:22:25,700 --> 02:22:24,300
see people in the field kind of take the

3100
02:22:27,560 --> 02:22:25,710
tunnel vision approach again because

3101
02:22:30,200 --> 02:22:27,570
they look at Jim and say ah well I see

3102
02:22:32,630 --> 02:22:30,210
his late dad was a military figure he's

3103
02:22:34,250 --> 02:22:32,640
just one of those disinformation agents

3104
02:22:36,050 --> 02:22:34,260
we look at people son lives with

3105
02:22:39,740 --> 02:22:36,060
contrary points of view they're

3106
02:22:41,570 --> 02:22:39,750
disinformation agents I think Jim was

3107
02:22:44,840 --> 02:22:41,580
one of the most perceptive people in the

3108
02:22:46,099 --> 02:22:44,850
field and I really enjoy reading

3109
02:22:49,760 --> 02:22:46,109
sauceless merits that

3110
02:22:51,830 --> 02:22:49,770
yeah I'd read it cover-to-cover yes but

3111
02:22:54,950 --> 02:22:51,840
he was a trickster figure he was very

3112
02:22:59,240 --> 02:22:54,960
marginal he he did perform perpetrate

3113
02:23:01,940 --> 02:22:59,250
some hoaxes himself but this exemplifies

3114
02:23:05,090 --> 02:23:01,950
what we're dealing with Jim is almost an

3115
02:23:07,880 --> 02:23:05,100
incarnation he of biology enzymes that

3116
02:23:12,260 --> 02:23:07,890
he displays these qualities you have to

3117
02:23:14,920 --> 02:23:12,270
analyze Mosley and that mostly is

3118
02:23:19,190 --> 02:23:14,930
writing in his his career in this field

3119
02:23:21,560 --> 02:23:19,200
really exemplify and illustrate the

3120
02:23:24,170 --> 02:23:21,570
trickster quality people don't think

3121
02:23:26,480 --> 02:23:24,180
that way especially if they're brought

3122
02:23:29,360 --> 02:23:26,490
up in the typical educational

3123
02:23:32,120 --> 02:23:29,370
institutions that we have and in typical

3124
02:23:32,750 --> 02:23:32,130
corporate structures institutions and

3125
02:23:36,260 --> 02:23:32,760
corporate story

3126
02:23:39,170 --> 02:23:36,270
just generally can't operate this way so

3127
02:23:41,900 --> 02:23:39,180
that we need to understand that those

3128
02:23:44,690 --> 02:23:41,910
types of organizations really affect

3129
02:23:47,719 --> 02:23:44,700
their thinking and very subtle way we

3130
02:23:49,610 --> 02:23:47,729
exclude things that don't fit most we

3131
02:23:52,070 --> 02:23:49,620
didn't fit into the organization's he

3132
02:23:55,490 --> 02:23:52,080
was a journal subscriber to move on that

3133
02:23:56,960 --> 02:23:55,500
was a whole being marginalized within

3134
02:23:59,660 --> 02:23:56,970
the culture that's already been

3135
02:24:02,750 --> 02:23:59,670
marginalized so he was the marginalized

3136
02:24:04,750 --> 02:24:02,760
person from a marginalized culture yeah

3137
02:24:07,730 --> 02:24:04,760
yeah that's a double whammy from a

3138
02:24:09,650 --> 02:24:07,740
marginalized society but this is not a

3139
02:24:12,349 --> 02:24:09,660
marginalized show although some people

3140
02:24:14,660 --> 02:24:12,359
try to marginalize us that gets

3141
02:24:17,450 --> 02:24:14,670
confusing we have George Hanson with

3142
02:24:27,620 --> 02:24:17,460
gene and Chris you're in the parry cast

3143
02:24:31,500 --> 02:24:27,630
[Music]

3144
02:24:36,630 --> 02:24:31,510
always independent-minded the genesis

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communications network GC attack of the

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rock AIDS has been well-received by

3147
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critics and readers alike it's a thrill

3148
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a minute story you'll never forget a

3149
02:24:47,969 --> 02:24:45,340
former US military intelligence officer

3150
02:24:50,490 --> 02:24:47,979
is haunted by intense dreams about a

3151
02:24:52,880 --> 02:24:50,500
beautiful woman pleading for his help

3152
02:24:55,440 --> 02:24:52,890
after a terrible battle in outer space

3153
02:24:57,780 --> 02:24:55,450
but the dreams turn out to be true and

3154
02:25:00,150 --> 02:24:57,790
thrust him into a telepathic love affair

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02:25:03,389 --> 02:25:00,160
with a woman whose faraway planet is

3156
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intent on destroying the earth and now

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the gripping tale continues in but

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coming of the protectors it's the second

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3218
02:27:39,209 --> 02:27:35,439
remember before it's time to survive

3219
02:27:41,369 --> 02:27:39,219
it's time to prepare this alert just

3220
02:27:43,109 --> 02:27:41,379
came in this special announcement is for

3221
02:27:45,209 --> 02:27:43,119
business owners and leaders of

3222
02:27:48,059 --> 02:27:45,219
organizations who've been waiting for

3223
02:27:49,739 --> 02:27:48,069
the right time to build general steel

3224
02:27:51,569 --> 02:27:49,749
has made it impossible to wait any

3225
02:27:53,760 --> 02:27:51,579
longer with rock-bottom prices that

3226
02:27:56,039 --> 02:27:53,770
could save you thousands that's right

3227
02:27:57,929 --> 02:27:56,049
general steel America's leader in pre

3228
02:27:59,819 --> 02:27:57,939
engineered structures is offering

3229
02:28:02,249 --> 02:27:59,829
buildings at prices you will never see

3230
02:28:05,369 --> 02:28:02,259
again don't miss these prices of 50 by

3231
02:28:07,799 --> 02:28:05,379
100 for $35,000 you heard right that's

3232
02:28:09,599 --> 02:28:07,809
5000 square feet for $35,000

3233
02:28:11,819 --> 02:28:09,609
manufacturers if you need a larger

3234
02:28:13,049 --> 02:28:11,829
building try a 100 by 100 commercial

3235
02:28:15,119 --> 02:28:13,059
building for a hundred and twenty nine

3236
02:28:17,489 --> 02:28:15,129
thousand you can't afford to rent with

3237
02:28:19,049 --> 02:28:17,499
these prices imagine a 70 by 100 foot

3238
02:28:20,849 --> 02:28:19,059
church building for under sixty nine

3239
02:28:22,799 --> 02:28:20,859
thousand dollars with the economy

3240
02:28:24,929 --> 02:28:22,809
improving and interest rates still at

3241
02:28:26,490 --> 02:28:24,939
historic lows you can't afford to wait

3242
02:28:30,180 --> 02:28:26,500
so call eight

3243
02:28:33,750 --> 02:28:30,190
691 steel lock in your price now call

3244
02:28:39,200 --> 02:28:33,760
866 91 steel that's eight six six nine

3245
02:28:39,210 --> 02:28:44,330
[Music]

3246
02:29:00,450 --> 02:28:57,120
Freedman you are listening to so we all

3247
02:29:04,440 --> 02:29:00,460
agree Jia mostly my old friend was one

3248
02:29:08,360 --> 02:29:04,450
of the most interesting characters to

3249
02:29:12,360 --> 02:29:08,370
ever come across in the UFO field fast

3250
02:29:15,690 --> 02:29:12,370
indeed he was into a lot of interesting

3251
02:29:18,090 --> 02:29:15,700
subjects I had endless conversations

3252
02:29:22,320 --> 02:29:18,100
with him about everything from politics

3253
02:29:24,180 --> 02:29:22,330
to UFOs to the state of reality and he

3254
02:29:26,100 --> 02:29:24,190
just rocked a little bit of everything

3255
02:29:27,990 --> 02:29:26,110
he was brilliant I mean in terms of his

3256
02:29:29,730 --> 02:29:28,000
education he went to Princeton for a

3257
02:29:32,040 --> 02:29:29,740
year or two and dropped out which means

3258
02:29:34,200 --> 02:29:32,050
nothing because we think that people

3259
02:29:36,510 --> 02:29:34,210
like Steve Jobs who was a brilliant man

3260
02:29:38,460 --> 02:29:36,520
and he went to college for maybe five

3261
02:29:40,920 --> 02:29:38,470
minutes to audit a few classes and it

3262
02:29:44,310 --> 02:29:40,930
didn't really hurt him as somebody who

3263
02:29:46,530 --> 02:29:44,320
innovated and affected everyone so tell

3264
02:29:50,430 --> 02:29:46,540
us more about Jim Mosely the trickster

3265
02:29:52,110 --> 02:29:50,440
well Mosley was sort of wise you know he

3266
02:29:55,380 --> 02:29:52,120
published Saucer Smith which was the

3267
02:29:56,910 --> 02:29:55,390
gossip rag of ufology and he'd poke fun

3268
02:30:00,390 --> 02:29:56,920
at just about everyone

3269
02:30:03,870 --> 02:30:00,400
so he was a court jester he would go and

3270
02:30:06,480 --> 02:30:03,880
hang out with people at UFO conferences

3271
02:30:09,120 --> 02:30:06,490
and drink and just really a party animal

3272
02:30:12,150 --> 02:30:09,130
world tricksters or party animals often

3273
02:30:14,880 --> 02:30:12,160
yeah as I've mentioned before Jim pulled

3274
02:30:17,690 --> 02:30:14,890
some hoaxes especially early in his

3275
02:30:21,240 --> 02:30:17,700
career tricksters are often a bit

3276
02:30:23,760 --> 02:30:21,250
antagonistic and to the power structure

3277
02:30:27,140 --> 02:30:23,770
and Jim was certainly that in the UFO

3278
02:30:30,590 --> 02:30:27,150
field Richard Hall describes him as a

3279
02:30:32,940 --> 02:30:30,600
stinking turd on the living room carpet

3280
02:30:36,240 --> 02:30:32,950
there's a birthday celebration and

3281
02:30:38,370 --> 02:30:36,250
people were posting theses on so and

3282
02:30:40,229 --> 02:30:38,380
Hall was one that was one of the top

3283
02:30:43,829 --> 02:30:40,239
people in the UFO field

3284
02:30:47,429 --> 02:30:43,839
really a major figure despise Jim mostly

3285
02:30:49,559 --> 02:30:47,439
as did many other very prestigious are

3286
02:30:51,149 --> 02:30:49,569
well-established people in the UFO field

3287
02:30:53,159 --> 02:30:51,159
let me tell you a story guys were on our

3288
02:30:53,760 --> 02:30:53,169
last segment about Richard Hall and Jim

3289
02:30:55,559 --> 02:30:53,770
Mosely

3290
02:30:58,889 --> 02:30:55,569
and I was involved somewhat but the

3291
02:31:01,469 --> 02:30:58,899
first time they had an encounter Jim

3292
02:31:03,449 --> 02:31:01,479
Mosely calls the offices of nightcap the

3293
02:31:05,939 --> 02:31:03,459
organization that was run at that time

3294
02:31:07,949 --> 02:31:05,949
by major Donald Kehoe and Richard Hall

3295
02:31:10,319 --> 02:31:07,959
was essentially the office manager okay

3296
02:31:12,569 --> 02:31:10,329
he was the operations guy he was the Tim

3297
02:31:13,800 --> 02:31:12,579
Cook no let's not put him at that level

3298
02:31:15,659 --> 02:31:13,810
but you get the point

3299
02:31:18,719 --> 02:31:15,669
he was the operations guy the manager

3300
02:31:20,699 --> 02:31:18,729
Jim talks to him for a few minutes then

3301
02:31:22,949 --> 02:31:20,709
Hall says are you taping this

3302
02:31:26,699 --> 02:31:22,959
conversation you've probably heard this

3303
02:31:28,559 --> 02:31:26,709
George no of course not

3304
02:31:30,689 --> 02:31:28,569
he tried to explain I don't have even a

3305
02:31:32,999 --> 02:31:30,699
tape recorder yeah Jim was the ultimate

3306
02:31:36,319 --> 02:31:33,009
Luddite at the end of his days he was

3307
02:31:39,420 --> 02:31:36,329
still using a 1980 smith-corona

3308
02:31:42,809 --> 02:31:39,430
portable electric typewriter to prepare

3309
02:31:45,090 --> 02:31:42,819
saucer smear so in the 60s a tape

3310
02:31:47,460 --> 02:31:45,100
recorder no but that point the

3311
02:31:51,359 --> 02:31:47,470
conversation abruptly ended but the

3312
02:31:55,170 --> 02:31:51,369
point being here is that Paul hated

3313
02:31:57,599 --> 02:31:55,180
Mosley for whatever reason then a short

3314
02:31:59,849 --> 02:31:57,609
time later I paid a visit with a group

3315
02:32:03,029 --> 02:31:59,859
of friends to matric eho and Luray

3316
02:32:05,399 --> 02:32:03,039
Virginia the next day we visited nycap

3317
02:32:07,439 --> 02:32:05,409
headquarters off Dupont Circle in

3318
02:32:09,420 --> 02:32:07,449
Washington by the way very near the

3319
02:32:11,999 --> 02:32:09,430
location where in the movie The Day the

3320
02:32:14,489 --> 02:32:12,009
Earth Stood Still do you remember that

3321
02:32:16,859 --> 02:32:14,499
the authorities are chasing Klaatu

3322
02:32:19,409 --> 02:32:16,869
Michael Rennie and he is shot down near

3323
02:32:21,149 --> 02:32:19,419
Dupont Circle that's near where

3324
02:32:24,300 --> 02:32:21,159
nightcaps headquarters were located

3325
02:32:26,189 --> 02:32:24,310
later on years later one of those

3326
02:32:28,529 --> 02:32:26,199
coincidences okay so we go to night cap

3327
02:32:31,139 --> 02:32:28,539
headquarters we open the door there's

3328
02:32:33,090 --> 02:32:31,149
Richard Hall who looks at me he knows

3329
02:32:35,510 --> 02:32:33,100
who I am he knows I was working with Jim

3330
02:32:41,670 --> 02:32:35,520
Mosely he says you are not welcome here

3331
02:32:43,800 --> 02:32:41,680
shaking his finger and anger whoa but

3332
02:32:49,159 --> 02:32:43,810
what did John keel called Mosely the

3333
02:32:54,820 --> 02:32:52,260
he woke that kind of

3334
02:32:57,219 --> 02:32:54,830
especially from people who have very

3335
02:32:59,349 --> 02:32:57,229
high status that's what you can expect

3336
02:33:00,969 --> 02:32:59,359
and the tricksters can be very

3337
02:33:04,120 --> 02:33:00,979
perceptive and you need to listen to

3338
02:33:08,200 --> 02:33:04,130
them but don't expect them to be well

3339
02:33:10,149 --> 02:33:08,210
accepted anytime soon so yeah we have

3340
02:33:13,059 --> 02:33:10,159
one more question from our question

3341
02:33:15,849 --> 02:33:13,069
forum at forum about the para caste calm

3342
02:33:17,889 --> 02:33:15,859
and this comes from another one of our

3343
02:33:20,769 --> 02:33:17,899
real insightful posters pulled to worst

3344
02:33:22,510 --> 02:33:20,779
know he's in Germany any of your own

3345
02:33:24,639 --> 02:33:22,520
experiences that convinced you there is

3346
02:33:27,309 --> 02:33:24,649
definitely a conscious reality

3347
02:33:29,590 --> 02:33:27,319
quote-unquote outside of our heads or

3348
02:33:31,780 --> 02:33:29,600
could it all just be an illusion which

3349
02:33:33,219 --> 02:33:31,790
he says I guess would be one big tricks

3350
02:33:36,689 --> 02:33:33,229
tourism in and of itself

3351
02:33:38,859 --> 02:33:36,699
well the laboratory based research in

3352
02:33:41,740 --> 02:33:38,869
parapsychology indicates that there it's

3353
02:33:46,960 --> 02:33:41,750
not just an illusion there are real

3354
02:33:50,019 --> 02:33:46,970
phenomena here ESP mind over matter that

3355
02:33:52,479 --> 02:33:50,029
it may be a very different kind of

3356
02:33:55,059 --> 02:33:52,489
reality than we think it is but know

3357
02:34:00,130 --> 02:33:55,069
these phenomena exists they are not

3358
02:34:03,370 --> 02:34:00,140
simply illusory period so above and be

3359
02:34:07,750 --> 02:34:03,380
all there's an external reality yes our

3360
02:34:11,800 --> 02:34:07,760
world has certain phenomena that occur

3361
02:34:14,830 --> 02:34:11,810
that we cannot explain by conventional

3362
02:34:18,639 --> 02:34:14,840
science so how do we get there how do we

3363
02:34:21,399 --> 02:34:18,649
get past the tiny corner of the world in

3364
02:34:24,280 --> 02:34:21,409
which UFO and general paranormal

3365
02:34:26,050 --> 02:34:24,290
research exists and how do we go to the

3366
02:34:29,109 --> 02:34:26,060
next step to understand what's really

3367
02:34:32,800 --> 02:34:29,119
going on not just this tiny perception

3368
02:34:35,410 --> 02:34:32,810
of it well what we do is we look at

3369
02:34:37,570 --> 02:34:35,420
various scientific and scholarly and

3370
02:34:40,269 --> 02:34:37,580
philosophical theories and see what fits

3371
02:34:42,639 --> 02:34:40,279
the data and we keep working along those

3372
02:34:45,070 --> 02:34:42,649
lines we'd have to change perspectives

3373
02:34:48,639 --> 02:34:45,080
we have to change paradigms of times and

3374
02:34:51,250 --> 02:34:48,649
realize what approaches work and what no

3375
02:34:54,399 --> 02:34:51,260
longer seem do give us any insight again

3376
02:34:56,530 --> 02:34:54,409
I will repeat anthropologist and or

3377
02:34:58,780 --> 02:34:56,540
other studying other cultures have come

3378
02:35:00,670 --> 02:34:58,790
to realize that these phenomena have

3379
02:35:03,429 --> 02:35:00,680
been reported for a very very long time

3380
02:35:05,410 --> 02:35:03,439
and other cultures have theorized about

3381
02:35:07,420 --> 02:35:05,420
these phenomena the

3382
02:35:09,880 --> 02:35:07,430
myths and they've understood how to

3383
02:35:12,130 --> 02:35:09,890
control and channel these forces using

3384
02:35:14,500 --> 02:35:12,140
ritual that's where we need to look and

3385
02:35:16,719 --> 02:35:14,510
there's very interesting theoretical

3386
02:35:20,530 --> 02:35:16,729
work done on that it is highly abstract

3387
02:35:23,980 --> 02:35:20,540
it is not immediately obvious how these

3388
02:35:26,590 --> 02:35:23,990
myths and rituals work that's why the

3389
02:35:29,020 --> 02:35:26,600
scholarly analysis is so important but

3390
02:35:31,300 --> 02:35:29,030
that takes time to absorb it's not

3391
02:35:34,240 --> 02:35:31,310
something that is read and easily

3392
02:35:35,650 --> 02:35:34,250
digested even in a month or two that's

3393
02:35:37,960 --> 02:35:35,660
going to take a few years for people to

3394
02:35:39,880 --> 02:35:37,970
start understanding these phenomena and

3395
02:35:42,160 --> 02:35:39,890
I am convinced that there's a lot a lot

3396
02:35:43,929 --> 02:35:42,170
of literature out there that is highly

3397
02:35:46,060 --> 02:35:43,939
relevant but people just haven't put the

3398
02:35:47,650 --> 02:35:46,070
pieces together yet it's not being a

3399
02:35:49,540 --> 02:35:47,660
Stephen King fan and just reading a

3400
02:35:51,400 --> 02:35:49,550
novel it's you really makes you think

3401
02:35:53,770 --> 02:35:51,410
I'll tell you the first chapter of my

3402
02:35:55,540 --> 02:35:53,780
book stalking the trickster trying just

3403
02:35:58,990 --> 02:35:55,550
to define the trickster I probably went

3404
02:36:01,210 --> 02:35:59,000
to a whole jar of ibuprofen because he's

3405
02:36:04,150 --> 02:36:01,220
such a headache just attempting number

3406
02:36:07,210 --> 02:36:04,160
one to grasp the concept but then to try

3407
02:36:09,550 --> 02:36:07,220
to relate it in language to someone else

3408
02:36:10,929 --> 02:36:09,560
and with the written word was really

3409
02:36:12,670 --> 02:36:10,939
difficult probably the most difficult

3410
02:36:15,550 --> 02:36:12,680
thing I've ever ever attempted

3411
02:36:17,500 --> 02:36:15,560
intellectually in my my process yeah

3412
02:36:19,440 --> 02:36:17,510
it's a very different way of thinking no

3413
02:36:21,880 --> 02:36:19,450
question people don't get it right away

3414
02:36:24,310 --> 02:36:21,890
and I've explained it to friends of mine

3415
02:36:25,480 --> 02:36:24,320
who are very highly educated in lectures

3416
02:36:26,830 --> 02:36:25,490
they say well after the third time

3417
02:36:28,750 --> 02:36:26,840
they've heard me there's they start to

3418
02:36:30,820 --> 02:36:28,760
get some of the ideas and so yeah it

3419
02:36:33,130 --> 02:36:30,830
takes time you have to sit down read a

3420
02:36:35,200 --> 02:36:33,140
lot contemplate it I think about

3421
02:36:37,240 --> 02:36:35,210
examples think about your life think

3422
02:36:40,060 --> 02:36:37,250
about people you know who've had these

3423
02:36:43,240 --> 02:36:40,070
experiences and just step back and look

3424
02:36:46,200 --> 02:36:43,250
at the whole UFO the whole paranormal

3425
02:36:48,820 --> 02:36:46,210
world in a different light that takes

3426
02:36:50,710 --> 02:36:48,830
sort of a reclusive time where you sit

3427
02:36:53,760 --> 02:36:50,720
back you do a lot of reading a lot of

3428
02:36:56,980 --> 02:36:53,770
thinking and you don't necessarily

3429
02:36:59,500 --> 02:36:56,990
ascribe or accept what's been told to

3430
02:37:01,750 --> 02:36:59,510
you eerie thing clings what's important

3431
02:37:03,910 --> 02:37:01,760
what keeps reoccurring this instability

3432
02:37:06,640 --> 02:37:03,920
of groups keeps reoccurring this

3433
02:37:09,190 --> 02:37:06,650
deception keeps reoccurring how do you

3434
02:37:11,320 --> 02:37:09,200
account for that and any theoretical

3435
02:37:14,440 --> 02:37:11,330
work that's going to be comprehensive in

3436
02:37:16,870 --> 02:37:14,450
describing the paranormal has to address

3437
02:37:18,190 --> 02:37:16,880
those kinds of issues George Hansen can

3438
02:37:18,670 --> 02:37:18,200
you tell our listeners where they can

3439
02:37:21,040 --> 02:37:18,680
find

3440
02:37:23,849 --> 02:37:21,050
more information about the trickster in

3441
02:37:27,700 --> 02:37:23,859
the paranormal well I've got a website

3442
02:37:30,809 --> 02:37:27,710
trickster book.com you can also find me

3443
02:37:33,070 --> 02:37:30,819
a few of my papers on academia.edu

3444
02:37:34,599 --> 02:37:33,080
people are not familiar with that some

3445
02:37:37,420 --> 02:37:34,609
of your listeners should find

3446
02:37:39,219 --> 02:37:37,430
academia.edu a real goldmine that

3447
02:37:42,280 --> 02:37:39,229
there's a lot of Jos there as well I

3448
02:37:44,290 --> 02:37:42,290
also have a blog that I post to very

3449
02:37:47,590 --> 02:37:44,300
occasionally and I do have a Twitter

3450
02:37:50,229 --> 02:37:47,600
page that I post do every month or two

3451
02:37:51,969 --> 02:37:50,239
those are places you can go or right now

3452
02:37:55,420 --> 02:37:51,979
that's the best I can do for you

3453
02:37:59,530 --> 02:37:55,430
check out porch hansen online you can

3454
02:38:03,340 --> 02:37:59,540
find us at the para cast com go to plus

3455
02:38:05,769 --> 02:38:03,350
dot the para cast com PL us dot the para

3456
02:38:08,679 --> 02:38:05,779
cast com you can sign up for our premium

3457
02:38:11,229 --> 02:38:08,689
service for a modest monthly or annual

3458
02:38:13,570 --> 02:38:11,239
fee get an ant free high-resolution

3459
02:38:16,900 --> 02:38:13,580
version of this show and the new

3460
02:38:20,380 --> 02:38:16,910
exclusive podcast after the para cast

3461
02:38:23,050 --> 02:38:20,390
lots more coming plus dr. Peric ascom on

3462
02:38:27,040 --> 02:38:23,060
twitter we are the para cast on Facebook

3463
02:38:29,830 --> 02:38:27,050
there are two not one to power cast fan

3464
02:38:32,830 --> 02:38:29,840
clubs don't ask me to explain that Chris

3465
02:38:36,040 --> 02:38:32,840
O'Brien site is our strange planet calm

3466
02:38:39,340 --> 02:38:36,050
check it out and also order a copy of

3467
02:38:41,050 --> 02:38:39,350
stalking the herd he'll sign it

3468
02:38:43,179 --> 02:38:41,060
he'll number it if you order it from the

3469
02:38:44,979 --> 02:38:43,189
site George Hanson thanks for joining us

3470
02:38:53,190 --> 02:38:44,989
on the power cast thank you for having

3471
02:38:59,710 --> 02:38:56,710
the para cast featuring Jean Steinberg

3472
02:39:02,580 --> 02:38:59,720
and Christopher O'Brien is a copyrighted

3473
02:39:06,310 --> 02:39:02,590
presentation of making the impossible

3474
02:39:11,400 --> 02:39:06,320
Incorporated tune in next week for a new

3475
02:39:11,770 --> 02:39:11,410
adventure in the para cast

3476
02:39:12,520 --> 02:39:11,780
you